2/5 Glosters

[Honora]

Dear All

 

Quick question. I hope for ancestry.co.uk specialists - I cant find the war diary for 2/5 Gloucester Regiment - do I gather its one of those that has not yet made it on to the site?

 

does any one know of who they were fighting with, I might be able to 'piggyback' on a 'sister battalion'.

 

 I'm interested in the end of August 1917, for a man by the name of Herbert Stone,  KIA 27 Aug 1917 and commemorated on the Tyne Cot Memorial.

I have just discovered a reference to  A F Barnes'  book, Story of the 2/5 Battalion the Gloucestershire Regiment

 

Thanks

 

Honora 

[Gareth Davies]

2/5th Gloucesters were in 184 Bde in 61st Division. Other Bns in the Bde were 2/4th Ox & Bucks LI, 2/1st Ox & Bucks LI, and 2/4th Berkshires.  The 2/4th and 2/6th Bns of the Gloucesters were in the same Div (in 163 Bde).

 

Rather annoyingly the 2/5th don't get a mention in the history of the Regiment by Everard Wyrall.

Edited 20 April , 2017 by Gareth Davies

[Terry_Reeves]

Honora

 

Available to download from TNA for a small fee:

 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355353

 

TR

[simon2]

Hi Honora,

 

Your man is not mentioned in the diary. They were in the line on the 27th at Poperinghe..

27th Aug 1917...

'' reorganisation of Coys and training. 50 emergency stretcher bearers sent up line. 3 killed 2 wounded. ''

 

Doesn't say wether the 3 men killed were part of the party sent forward.

 

Simon.

[Honora]

Dear Gareth, Terry, and Simon

 

Many thanks for your replies - I now have something to go on.

 

Interesting that Wyrall doesn't mention them  - did he consider it  a 'not important unit of conscripted men? or ...' 

 

The local library has a reference copy of the Barnes book so I'll try to get into town and then download the TNA - although I think you have given me all I need to know  Simon - just wonder if he was one of the those three killed? 

 

I realise ORs were rarely mentioned in War Diaries, but I have been very lucky on one or two occasions when privates were mentioned by name. 

 

Honora

 

 

[clk]

Hi Honora,

 

5 hours ago, Honora said:

Quick question. I hope for ancestry.co.uk specialists - I cant find the war diary for 2/5 Gloucester Regiment - do I gather its one of those that has not yet made it on to the site?

 

On Ancestry the diary appears to start here

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit: You may well get more contextual info from the Brigade HQ and Division HQ (General Staff) diaries which will also be on Ancestry

Edited 20 April , 2017 by clk

[Honora]

Dear Chris

 

Many thanks for this - this gives me some background for the weeks up to his death and to where he died.

 

As Simon says above;   Your man is not mentioned in the diary. They were in the line on the 27th at Poperinghe..

27th Aug 1917...

'' reorganisation of Coys and training. 50 emergency stretcher bearers sent up line. 3 killed 2 wounded. ''

Doesn't say whether the 3 men killed were part of the party sent forward.

 

I can only wonder whether he was one of the three? 

 

Ivor Gurney was of course another casualty from this battalion:  'a Common Private makes but little show'  Ivor Gourny's preface to 'Severn and Somme'  published 1917.

 

Thanks again

Honora

[Simon_Fielding]

Just a little more - formerly served 4th Bn Wiltshire service no. 202723

[Honora]

 Many thanks Simon,

 

I have this and also the fact that according to  the SDGW, he enlisted at Midsomer Norton, date unknown, as Private 5124, 4thBattalion Wiltshire Regiment. so assume  as he was born in March 1898, he joined up  but was allowed to defer service until his nineteenth birthday. According to the newspaper report of April 1916, for his brother's appeal, he was still at home.

 

Honora. 

 

[HarryBrook]

A check of S.D.G.W. and C.W.G.C. for casualties of 2/5th Glosters shows that two men are listed as being killed on 27th August 1917:-

Pte. 260210 Herbert Henry Stone and Pte. 202108 Henry Thomas Hales, both commemorated on Tyne Cot Memorial. Pte. 2502111 Alfred James Gay died of wounds on 28th August and was buried at Brandhoek New Military Cemetery No. 3; wounds possibly received the previous day.

Prior to 27th August 2/5th Glosters suffered a number of fatal casualties on 22nd, then after 27th and 28th the next was recorded on 31st.

So perhaps the diary writer included Pte. Gay as one of the three killed on 27th, and Herbert Henry Stone was one of the "party sent forward". 

Edited 29 April , 2017 by HarryBrook

[clk]

Hi Honora,

 

It might be that Herbert had the same path as a chap called Norman Nattress - his service papers are here on FMP. They show that Norman joined the 4/Wilts on 22nd February 1917, and was allocated the number 5126 - two away from Herbert's. He embarked at Southampton on 18th June 1917, and disembarked at Rouen on 22nd June 1917 - arriving at 3 Infantry Base Depot the same day. He remained there until 20th July 1917 when he was transferred to the 2/5 Gloucestershire Regiment, and was renumbered 260184 - 26 away from Herbert. He joined the battalion in the field on 21st July 1917.

 

With slightly less detail in his papers, a William Powell was called up from the reserve and posted to 4/Wilts on 22nd February 1917 and given the number 5125 - later being transferred to 2/5 Gloucestershire Regiment and renumbered 260187. 260209 Kirkham 2/5 Gloucestershire Regiment was originally called up and posted to the Wiltshire Regiment on 22nd February 1917.

 

It does look like there is a pattern emerging, which further near number sampling may help to reveal.

 

Regards

Chris

 

[Honora]

 Dear Harry and Chris

 

Many thanks for your posts - and your skill and time.

 

Chris - This makes sense but  Herbert Stone  would have had his 19th birthday on 19 March 1917 - so I think it might be possible as you say. 

 

Norman Natress joined the battalion in the field on 21st July 1917 according to his service record. The 2/5 Glosters War Diary records one man being drafted on this day but a draft of 104 had been received the previous day.  

 

Harry -  Thanks for checking S.D.G.W. and C.W.G.C. for casualties of 2/5th Glosters. ( Alfred James Gay excited me for a moment - it is a local name, but census shows he was from a different area).   

 

The only other information is a newspaper memorial for the first year anniversary of his death:

'In cherished and unfading memory of our dear son and brother, H H Stone, - Glosters, who was killed instanteously in France August 27th 1917, aged 19. Will never be forgotten by his sorrowing Mother, Father, Brother and Sisters, also Brother Steve who is serving in Egypt.' (Western Gazette, 30 Aug 1918)

 

Was the 'instantaneously' one of those 'kind messages passed to families regardless of the truth'?

 

(Brother Steve died of pneumonia on 5 November 1918)

 

Thanks again

Honora

 

 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

Quote

Was the 'instantaneously' one of those 'kind messages passed to families regardless of the truth'?

Possibly - the messages that made their way back generally don't indicate anything other than an instant death (unless it was obvious that they'd died in hospital etc)

Craig