Irish Guards casualty Joseph Redmond - wounded where?

[depaor01]

 

Hi all,

 

Another local man being researched for my project is 3836 Lance-Sgt. Joseph Redmond, Irish Guards, who died of wounds on the 8th of September 1917. Looking at CWGC it seems that the 31st July saw the biggest number of casualties from the 2nd Battalion and this was presumably the Battle of Pilckem. This means that if he was wounded during that action, it took well over a month for him to succumb to his injuries which is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

 

I now see this quote from Kipling's account - the described action seems to have happened nearer Redmond's date of death:

 

"The Battalion was lucky in its four days’ turn, it lost on the night of the 4th September…four men killed and twenty-three wounded."

 

My problem is that Kipling doesn't say where this action took place.

 

Two questions then:

 

Where were 23 men of the Irish Guards wounded on the 4th September, and is my man likely to have been one of the 23?

Is it more likely or less likely that he was wounded on the 31st July?

 

I realise the answers will be more conjecture than fact, but some opinions would be welcome.

 

Thanks,

 

Dave

 

 

[jonbem]

hi Dave

on findmypast it refers a supplementary note of M.M. Perhaps that could be a pointer?

First name(s)	Joseph
Last name	Redmond
Service number	3836
Rank	L/sgt
Regiment	Irish Guards
Battalion	2nd. Battalion.
Birth place	Rathfarnham, Co. Dublin
Residence	-
Enlistment place	Dublin
Death year	1917
Death day	8
Death month	9
Cause of death	Died of wounds
Death place	France & Flanders
Theatre of war	Western European Theatre
Supplementary Notes	M.M.
Category	Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory	First World War
Collections from	Great Britain

[depaor01]

Thanks Jonbem - I got the Military Medal reference from the CWGC record but the MM cards are not on Ancestry unfortunately. If the MM was earned between the 31st July and the 4th September that would solve the mystery but it's a long shot!

 

Dave

[jonbem]

the notoriously accurate (!?) Wikipedia mentions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Irish_Guards

In 1917 the Irish Guards took part in the Battle of Pilckem which began on the 31 July during the Third Battle of Ypres. Further actions took place at Menin Road and Poelcapelle. During 'Third Ypres', at Broenbeek, in September, Lance-Sergeant Moyney and Private Woodcock of the 2nd Battalion, Irish Guards, were part of an advance post that became surrounded by Germans. During the defence, the Lance-Sergeant attacked the advancing Germans with grenades and with his lewis gun. He, and his men, then charged the Germans, breaking through them and reaching a stream where he and Private Woodcock formed a rearguard while the rest of the party withdrew. They subsequently began to withdraw, crossing the stream, but Private Woodcock heard cries for help and he returned, retrieving the wounded man and carrying him back to British lines under machine-gun fire. They had held out for ninety-six hours.

[jonbem]

Dave

found the gazette page, 2/3rds down right hand column

so that was th previous year.

rgds

Jon

redmond gazette aug1916.pdf

and the Edinburgh entry

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/12971/page/1411/data.pdf

Edited 19 April , 2017 by jonbem
add 2nd link

[TwoEssGee]

At this time (beginning of September 1917) the 2nd Guards Brigade were in and out of trenches on the nearside of the Broembeck. This usually involved a four day stint in the trenches, followed by four days rest, then four days as reserve. It seems to have been a relatively quiet period, following the advances made on 16th August, and prior to the German attacks on the 3rd Coldstream on 10th September in the vicinity of Ney Copse and Ney Wood.. The 2nd Irish Guards took over their positions on the evening of the 12th, and it was during this cycle that the VC action took place involving L/Sgt Moyney and Pte Woodcock.

 

"The Battalion was lucky in its four days’ turn, it lost on the night of the 4th September…four men killed and twenty-three wounded."

 

This would suggest to me that these losses were down to the routine wastage of frontline trench warfare, such as sniper fire and artillery bombardment, and that the 4 killed and  23 wounded are the cumulative figures for the 4 day stretch on the frontline that ended on 4th September.

They were replaced in the line by 1st Scots Guards who lost two men killed during their 4 day stint.

 

I'm having some difficulty getting the quoted losses to tally with the CWGC stats though, so maybe the 4 killed mentioned by Kipling actually include those who later died of their wounds, including L/Sgt Redmond.

[depaor01]

Many thanks for those pointers and info TwoEssGee and jonbem.

Much obliged.

 

Dave