Civilian/Marine deaths from enemy action at sea

[Guest Pete Wood]

To ensure that I have a complete list of civilian casualties, to back up the many snippets of information and names in my records, I have decided to download all the WW1 Marine Registers which list deaths at sea for Merchant Navy shipping.

I am not going to lift ALL the info and put it on the forum (because there is about 1000 pages), but I am happy to do look-ups.

The registers are simply listed by the first three letters of a person's surname. There is one register per year, which tells you only the surname of the person - and forename(s) and age if known - and the vessel on which he/she was sailing when they died.

I will be downloading these files on Friday onwards.

Of course, if anyone has already downloaded these files, I would be willing to pay for half in return for copies of what you have.

An example is shown:

[chrisharley9]

To ensure that I have a complete list of civilian casualties, to back up the many snippets of information and names in my records, I have decided to download all the WW1 Marine Registers which list deaths at sea for Merchant Navy shipping.

I am not going to lift ALL the info and put it on the forum (because there is about 1000 pages), but I am happy to do look-ups.

The registers are simply listed by the first three letters of a person's surname. There is one register per year, which tells you only the surname of the person - and forename(s) and age if known - and the vessel on which he/she was sailing when they died.

I will be downloading these files on Friday onwards.

Of course, if anyone has already downloaded these files, I would be willing to pay for half in return for copies of what you have.

An example is shown:

Peter

I know your interest in civil casualties for the Great War..do you yet have the 4 who died in Kings Lynn...I cant promise an immediate answer, but hope to have an answer in the New Year

All The Best

Chris

[Guest Pete Wood]

I do have the four Kings Lynn casualties. Contact me off forum for details, please.

[larneman]

To ensure that I have a complete list of civilian casualties, to back up the many snippets of information and names in my records, I have decided to download all the WW1 Marine Registers which list deaths at sea for Merchant Navy shipping.

And were does one download such lovely records..

Liam

[Mark Hone]

Does the register record the circumstances of losses? I am interested in the SS 'Englehorn' which sank in 1914. Its loss appears to have been initially attributed to enemy action but later downgraded to a 'normal' shipwreck as the members of the crew were not accorded CWGC commemoration. I know of at least two crewmembers who appear on local (or in our case school) war memorials but are not on the CWGC database.

[Guest Pete Wood]

You can download the Deaths At Sea register from http://www.1837online.com/Trace2web/ Each record will cost around 10p to download (minimum spend £5).

The records only give very brief details - the person's name (sometimes only initials of forenames), age if known, and name of ship. It then gives you a reference to buy the death certificate which, if you buy one, will sometimes give information such as "died at sea, as a result of enemy action."

But these are images, so while I am happy to do a look up (if you know the person's name, or ship) it is not practical to look for "all casualties of the Leinster."

The records are listed alphabetically by the name of the deceased, using the first three letter of the surname and by year.

So I would look for, as an example, John Smith, under SMI for the year 1915 and this would show:

Smith J 24 (years old) RMS Lollipop XYZ1234 (death certificate number)

If John Smith's wife was drowned, it might only show:

Smith (female) 23 RMS Lollipop XYZ2345

I have now downloaded ALL the 1914-1918 records, so I will carry out any reasonable request.

[larneman]

What is the actual quality of the images. Are they good enough to run through a professional OCR software package using image to text mode. I have access to different OCR software packages and still find Omnipage 14 a good OCR program. If you send me a a page or half a page I can let you know if they are easy to converted.

Only if you are interested that is. If the quality is good I am thinking of downloading the Naval Officers and men.

Liam

[Guest Pete Wood]

I have Omnipage 14 Pro - and, sadly, the quality of the downloaded images is not good enough for this OCR software to make anything of it.

However, I admit I am a fairly new user of Omnipage, so if you want to make a few experiments, I am happy to pass a few pages along.

You need also to download a 'viewer' from the 1837 website to view these files. But you can then right click the image, when opened with the viewer - then copy and convert them to TIFF or JPEG, using Photoshop (or similar).

The problem is that the type on the orginal images is very 'inky' and an 'e' looks like an 'o' (as does an 'a'). Luckily everything is in alphabetical order, because sometimes I have only been able to work out what a word is by reading the words above and below the word I am struggling with.

The resolution has been set, deliberately I suspect, at 28dpi. As you are probably aware, the OCR packages will only read a document at 72dpi+. So I first convert them to 72di, which makes the files pretty big.

Contact me off forum and I will send you some pages to play with. But I fear you will be disappointed.....

[Northern Soul]

RT,

Please can you see if you can identify "Allen Andrew" in the files. He is listed on a local war memorial but is not commemorated by the CWGC so I guess he must have died from natural causes.

Cheers.

Andy.

[Malcolm]

One that has always foiled me in the past was finding details of Caldergrove

PETER PHILLIP MARSHALL

Able Seaman

SS/1370

(RFR/DEV/B/3727). R.N. S.S. "Caldergrove.", Royal Navy

who died on

Wednesday, 7th March 1917. Age 30.

Aye

Malcolm

[Guest Pete Wood]

RT,

Please can you see if you can identify "Allen Andrew" in the files. He is listed on a local war memorial but is not commemorated by the CWGC so I guess he must have died from natural causes.

Cheers.

Andy.

He is not listed, so I don't think he died at sea.

Allen Andrew was 67 years old when the war started so your theory seems logical to me.

[Malcolm]

Typical RT,

I just did a search again having had no luck in 2000 when I researched the Memorial.

http://www.naval-history.net/WW1oMSLosses1917.htm

has

Caldergrove, 4,327grt, defensively-armed, 6 March 1917, 200 miles WNW from the Fastnet, torpedoed without warning and sunk by submarine, 19 lives lost including Master

Aye

Malcolm

[Guest Pete Wood]

One that has always foiled me in the past was finding details of Caldergrove

PETER PHILLIP MARSHALL

Able Seaman

SS/1370

(RFR/DEV/B/3727). R.N. S.S. "Caldergrove.", Royal Navy

who died on

Wednesday, 7th March 1917. Age 30.

Aye

Malcolm

He is also listed as being part of HMS President 111.

Isn't that Chatham??

He is shown as being 39 years old.

I can't make out if that is Caldegrove, but I'm placing the image here to see if it makes more sense to you....

[Malcolm]

Looks like Caldergrove. Maybe he was part of the RN guncrew assigned.

Aye

Malcolm

[Northern Soul]

Allen Andrew was 67 years old when the war started so your theory seems logical to me.

Cheers Pete.......... how did you know he was 67?

Andy.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Allen Andrew was 67 years old when the war started so your theory seems logical to me.

Cheers Pete.......... how did you know he was 67?

Andy.

I put his name into FreeBMD (Births Marriages Deaths) when I couldn't find him on the list - just to mkae sure his surname was Andrew and not Andrews.

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

This showed when his birth was registered.

[Northern Soul]

I put his name into FreeBMD (Births Marriages Deaths) when I couldn't find him on the list - just to mkae sure his surname was Andrew and not Andrews.

Many thanks.

Andy.

[larneman]

Thanks for the copies of your images. You were quite correct in their being of such a poor quality. They look typed and with a poor machine. Probaly top quality in its day.

They convert quite easily to PDF. Which makes life easier as I have Adobe Acrobat 6 Professional.

I use the following program to work on the images.

PhotoFiltre is a free program at http://www.photofiltre.com/

I have had great succes with old printed books from around 1824 and later.

Typed messages are still to difficult but maybe in the future.

I can only manage about 50% good and the rest has to be corrected in Omnipage.

The programs at my work, usually better, did not even get so high.

It has answered my question on if it was worth downloading Marine Officers.

Thanks,

Liam

[Northern Soul]

RT,

Please can you check someone else for me?

Charles Richardson Hird, 1917.

Cheers.

Andy.

[Guest Pete Wood]

RT,

Please can you check someone else for me?

Charles Richardson Hird, 1917.

Cheers.

Andy.

He is in the 1918 register.

Charles R Hird

Age 41

Name of vessel: Moorlands [sunk June 1918 by UB88].

FreeBMD shows he was married in 1902 in Ulverston.

I also notice he is NOT on the CWGC.....

[kin47]

Hello

PRESIDENT III was the establishment for gunners on merchant ships. This carried through into WW II when the gunners were called DEMS gunners.

don

[Northern Soul]

Charles R Hird

Age 41

Name of vessel: Moorlands [sunk June 1918 by UB88].

FreeBMD shows he was married in 1902 in Ulverston.

I also notice he is NOT on the CWGC.....

Thank you for that RT. He actually died in December 1917 from, I think, natural causes, hence his omission from the CWGC database. However, this is to be confirmed.

Cheers.

Andy.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Charles R Hird

Age 41

Name of vessel: Moorlands [sunk June 1918 by UB88].

FreeBMD shows he was married in 1902 in Ulverston.

I also notice he is NOT on the CWGC.....

Thank you for that RT. He actually died in December 1917 from, I think, natural causes, hence his omission from the CWGC database. However, this is to be confirmed.

Cheers.

Andy.

His death certificate will show a date of death.

It doesn't surprise me, in the light of what you say, that he is in the 1918 register. It seems to take up to three months (but usualy 6 weeks) for a name to make it onto the register.

[Northern Soul]

Pete,

Please can you see if a Thomas Clegg (SS Santa Margherita) is listed with a date of death around late October, 1918 ?

Cheers.

Andy.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Pete,

Please can you see if a Thomas Clegg (SS Santa Margherita) is listed with a date of death around late October, 1918 ?

Cheers.

Andy.

He is listed on page 1 of the 1919 register, with the following info:

Tom Clegg, aged 24, Santa Margherita.