RFC Victory Claims 22 Aug and 14 Sep 1916

[Fujdog]

Hi there, could anyone tell me if the following victory claims by Lt LBF Morris and Lt Tom Rees of 11 Squadron, correspond with German losses recorded on those days?

 

The first was a Roland on August 22nd 1916, around 5.45pm over Bapaume, the second, an LVG on September 14th 1916, also over Bapaume at around 9.30 am.

 

Many thanks

 

Jill

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Jill,

There were five German Air Service losses for 22 Aug 1916, including:-

Unteroffizier Wilhelm Heekmann; over St. Denis

Leutnant der Reserve Hans Becken (or Beeken) (Pilot), KG 1 (Ks 1): over Maurepas.

The remaining three for 22 August seem less likely.

There were also five German Air Service losses for 14 Sep 1916, including:-

Leutnant Erich Schultz (Observer), FA 225 (A): over Matigny

Leutnant der Reserve Fritz Gerstle (Pilot), FA 5b: over Rancourt (Peronne).

Again, the remaining three seem less likely.

Source: Casulalties of the German Air Service 1914-1920, by Franks, Bailey, and Duiven (Grub Street 1999).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[MikeMeech]

Hi

 

However, note that COTGAS lists the dead not wounded or getting down uninjured in a damaged aeroplane.  Also note that some claims include aircraft that were 'smoking' and going down, however, they may have just been trying to get away rather than shot down.

 

Mike

[Fujdog]

Thank you Kim and Mike. Well I hope they survived, whoever they were.

 

Jill

[MikeMeech]

51 minutes ago, MikeMeech said:

Hi

 

However, note that COTGAS lists the dead not wounded or getting down uninjured in a damaged aeroplane.  Also note that some claims include aircraft that were 'smoking' and going down, however, they may have just been trying to get away rather than shot down.

 

Mike

Hi

 

Self Correction COTGAS does have non-KIA in, should have looked at copy not rely on memory. However, the 'Aerodrome Forum' have been involved in discussing and 'correcting' these casualty lists in various threads.  Also we still await a 'TSTB' type detailed book on the German (and other) air arms.

 

Mike

[topgun1918]

Hi Jill

 

As instigator of the '100 years ago today' threads on 'the other site', I had hoped that exposure of British claims, as has been done for the Belgian, French and German air services, would lead to a more accurate (or even tentative) matching of claims to losses.  Sadly, this has not been the case for the claims in which you are interested.  

 

RFC Communique number 50 reports:  On the front of the 3rd Brigade an offensive patrol of 11 Sqn encountered a formation of about 15 German machines, chiefly Rolands and L.V.G.s.  These were engaged by our F.E.s, assisted by one Nieuport Scout.  The engagement became of a general nature, all of our machines being engaged. 2nd Lt Morris, pilot, and Lt Rees, observer, singled out one machine which was seen to side-slip and plunge to earth out of control and was seen on the ground in a wrecked condition.  Three others were driven down by the combined attacks of our machines and appeared to be completely out of control, although lost to view before hitting the ground.  Of these, one, a Roland Scout, was seen to be emitting clouds of smoke, as though on fire.  This latter machine had been engaged by Capt Price, pilot, and Lt Libby, observer.  Three other machines were seen to land under control and the whole hostile formation was completely broken up.

 

The result of this sprawling engagement appears to have been:

 

A Roland crashed west of Bapaume at 19:00/20:00 by Lt A Ball in Nieuport 17 A201

 

Two Rolands out of control south of Bapaume at 19:10/20:10 by Capt S W Price & Lt F Libby in FE2b 6994

 

A Roland C out of control south of Bapaume at 19:10/20:10 by Capt S W Price & Lt F Libby in FE2b 6994 and 2nd Lt L B F Morris & Lt T Rees in FE2b 6983

 

A Roland in flames Vaux at 19:30/20:30 by Lt A Ball in Nieuport 17 A201

 

A Roland crashed Vaux - Maurepas at 19:45/20:45 by Lt A Ball in Nieuport 17 A201 - usually said to be OfStv Wilhelm Cymera (Wia) & Ltn Hans Becken (Kia), KG 1/Ks 1

 

RFC Communique number 53 suggests that the two-seater claimed on 14 September may have been merely 'driven down' rather than out of control; if that was the case, it is unlikely that there were any casualties.

 

Graeme

 

[Fujdog]

Thank you Mike and Graeme for both of these replies. I've been studying the combat reports particularly for the 22 August, makes your head ache a bit trying to picture so many aircraft. There was an initial late afternoon offensive patrol involved before the escort to the bombers took off in the early evening - a seperation which was noted in the war diary but isn't as clear in the Communique.

 

Respect to anyone who takes on the job of matching them all up to the German records...

 

Jill