9058 Pte John Seymour Howell - MM query

[Pat Atkins]

Would very much appreciate any information regarding the award of a Military Medal to my father's uncle, Pte John Seymour Howell of the 1st Bn Norfolk Regt. Have found him listed as a recipient on Ancestry, but have no other details whatsoever  - any guidance would be very helpful, thanks.

 

Cheers, Pat

Edited 28 March , 2017 by Pat Atkins
typo

[PRC]

Service number 9058 would put his enlistment pre-war so his MM could have been awarded at any time from August 1914 onwards. That's a long period to trawl through the Battalion War Diary. Volume 2 of The Regimental Official History covering 1914 - 1919 doesn't list him in the index and while there are many appendices, there isn't one covering gallantry awards.

http://lib.militaryarchive.co.uk/library/infantry-histories/library/The-Norfolk-Regiment-1685-1918-Vol-2/HTML/index.asp

 

The original MM citations are I believe all gone. There would be a second Medal Index Card covering the award of his Military Medal, which you should be able to find on Ancestry.

Its held at the National Archive under reference WO 372/23/122877

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6176178

With luck that should give you a London Gazette date which would narrow down your search - it may be possible to establish from the other names in the list roughly the period their awards stem from.

 

 I've noticed with FindMyPast searches recently that they have started returning search matches with images of small cards showing surname, initial unit and London Gazette date - unfortunately limited funds mean I only have access when I'm at the library. And this may be all you get on the gallantry MiC's.

 

Trying to track down an MM award just by searching the London Gazette is like searching for the proverbial needle in the haystack in my experience, and even then there will be no citation. I've given up using the site search engine and rely on Mr. Google instead.

 

Can I assume that this is the John Seymour Howell born Great Yarmouth circa 1896 and not the John Seymour Howell born Islington circa 1886/87. I'm working my way through the local Norfolk Newspapers stored at the County Archive. They are likely to report the citation in full and there could be a picture - but only if its a Yarmouth man.

 

Apologies if it sounds like I'm closing off lines of enquiry, but if you can track down the relevant London Gazette date from your Ancestry access then I can check it out and do you a look up of the relevant bit of the Battalion War Diary, (although believe that's on Ancestry as well) and have a look to see if there's anything in the newspapers,

 

regards,

Peter

[ForeignGong]

Medal rolls confirm disembarkation France 9 Apr 1915 Disch 9 Jul 1919

 

SWB states;  enlisted 26 Mar 1914 issued badge No B251849

[HarryBrook]

His award was gazetted in February 1919, so the action would have been very much towards the end of the war, or his general conduct during the war was considered to be worthy of the award of the M.M.

 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31173/supplement/2103

[Pat Atkins]

Thank you all for this help, folks - very much appreciate your time, effort and expertise. Have just seen the attached photograph of John Howell in uniform in WW2 (Home Guard I think) and I can clearly see the MM ribbon.

 

PRC - yes, he is the Great Yarmouth man; his service number suggests he enlisted in Spring 1914, though as ForeignGong says he didn't get to France until April 1915 for some reason, and was awarded a SWB; he survived the war, and died in 1971. The London John Seymour Howell may well be a relative, as our man's father was a Londoner also called John Seymour Howell, born in 1863 (my father's older brothers all had the same middle name, in fact, as did our man's son Ralph who was KIA at Tobruk in 1941). I'd be very grateful to hear of anything you might come across in the newspaper concerning him, many thanks.

 

While I don't have FMP either, I followed PRC's link and downloaded the medal card from TNA which I'm attaching - it's stamped "France", and has a note "see X records" which makes me wonder...

 

I found an online (modern) Roll of Honour for Great Yarmouth: http://www.familynotices24.co.uk/gym/view/3530722/-john-seymour-howell which says he was MM and Bar. Now I am very aware of how things are often conflated and misremembered over time, so I'm not accepting the Bar to his MM as fact, but I did wonder if a post-Armistice second award might be plausible? Along the lines HarryBrook suggests, for general conduct, perhaps. Might the cryptic "see X records" refer to another card somewhere now lost? No other evidence that I can see of a Bar, but then until I found the site above I had no idea there was any question of a gallantry award at all. 

 

So, thanks again for the generous help, and I'd be glad of people's thoughts on the possibility of a Bar to his MM. And how on earth I might categorically discount or confirm it! Have to say, I can't see a rosette in the attached picture, which would strongly suggest no award of a Bar - I'm inclined to think this is pretty conclusive, but don't have the knowledge to be sure.

 

Cheers, Pat

 

Edit: have just scrolled through the London Gazette entry and it starts with awards of Bars to MMs, and in each case the original award is clearly acknowledged - which is not the case for John Seymour Howell. So, with this and the lack of rosette in the photo, I'm going for a single MM for him after all. And very proud I am of it, my family's first gallantry award. 

 

JSH WW2.pdf

JSH MM card.pdf

Edited 29 March , 2017 by Pat Atkins
Should have done a bit more work myself before posting!

[ForeignGong]

On the LG given above if you go to page 2087 there is a heading

 

His Majesty the KING has been graciously

pleased to approve of the award of the Military

Medal for bravery in the Field to the undermentioned

Warrant Officers, Non-Comanissioned

Officers ,md Men : —

[Pat Atkins]

Thanks for this - really should've thought to look at this before I posted. Can't see any other evidence of a Bar for John S. Howell, and those men getting second MMs in the LG (and thanks again for the link) are very clearly shown as e.g. 12345 Pte. Smith, J. 2nd Bn. R. Fus. MM and the date their first award was gazetted is also given. 

 

Cheers, Pat

[PRC]

I've been through the war diary from August 1918 to February 1919 inclusive and cannot see any mention of awards to other ranks, let alone your man. However, writing in places is very faint and its in long-hand rather than typed, so I may have missed something. One further word of caution - I may just be unlucky but all the war diaries I've downloaded from the National Archive seem to be missing some of the appendices. For that I've had more joy downloading the Brigade War Diaries. The downloads cover shorter periods, but as a copy of each units war diary in full was sent to Brigade HQ at the end of the month and it was usually typed up, they can make a lot more sense.

 

Going through the war diary, the last wartime action for which they received wider recognition, ("thanks" of the Divisional Commander for being the only battalion to take and hold all their objectives), was the capture of the village of Beugny on the 2nd September 1918, and subsequently holding it through the night of the 2nd/3rd in the face of counter-attacks until the attack could be resumed. According to the divisional commander this made the enemies line in the area untenable and forced them to fall back, making the next days advance a bit of a walk-over. Sounds like just the thing gongs would be dished out for. Unfortunately the official history has nothing to say either way.

 

I'll keep an eye open - by co-incidence I'm working through the January 1919 editions of one newspaper at the moment and I suspect any reference in the local papers will come after the gazette date. Hopefully if I do find something it will settle the bar issue as well,

 

regards,

Peter

[Pat Atkins]

Thanks, Peter, I appreciate it. I wonder if the gap between the action at Beugny and February 1919 isn't too wide to account for his MM though - will have a look at other examples if I can find them and compare. The tip re Brigade WDs is handy, will follow it up.

 

Cheers, Pat 

[PRC]

Just took a look at the other nine men from the 1st Battalion listed on that London Gazette, in case I could spot any of them in the newspapers and know I was on the right track. I used the National Archive catalogue for the Medal Index Cards to identify their first names and then ran them through the Ancestry Military search to see if there was anything worth investigating later on FMP when I'm in the library.

 

Bearing in mind that a report on an action that led to the medal awards might have been filed in all the relevant service records you might want to check Ancestry yourself for the papers for these two:-

London Gazette shows 6376 Sjt Gilding, J (Holme Dale) - MIC gives him as James - and that should be Holme Hale.

Ancestry has WW1 pension records for a James Gilding of Swaffham. Pension records quite often include a sizable extract from the service records, and were stored separately so survived the blitz. Holme Hale is about 5 to 6 miles east of Swaffham.

 

London Gazette shows 13086 Pte Keymer, F.W, (Norwich), MIC gives him as Frank William.

Ancestry has WW1 service records for a Frank William Keymer born Fakenham.

There is no Frank William born Fakenham on the 1911 Census and the only Keymers living at Fakenham are an older childless couple. I suspect therefore its the same person.

 

Apologies if those two are red herrings, but potentially they could give you a back door route to the information you are seeking,

 

regards,

Peter

[Pat Atkins]

Well worth a look, thanks! Will likely be a day or two before I can get back to this, but will post on here whatever I can find out.

 

Cheers, Pat

[Pat Atkins]

Decided this couldn't wait, so have read through the records PRC suggested. Alas, no mention of MM at all in Sgt Gilding's, and all Pte Keymer's says is "Awarded Military Medal Lon. Gaz. sup. 11.2.19". However, there is also a badly-preserved letter (in beautiful calligraphy) from Frank Keymer asking someone for the citation for his medal. What I can make out says:

 

Sir,

 

 As I am not in perfect health just a present & expecting to visit Hospital shortly I have decided on this course. Please would you enclose with the Medal the copy of the actual [reporting?] of the act for which I was awarded it, as I have [nit?] yet been able to read it.

 

 Thank you

 

Both men have interesting service careers, will summarise briefly:

 

Gilding: enlisted Dec 1902 Norwich aged nearly 19. Served 2/Norfolks - South Africa, Gibraltar; Army Reserve from Dec 1910. Mobilised 1/Norfolks 5 Aug 1914 and in France from 14 Aug 1914 until 17 May 1917, then home till further service in France 25 Jan 18 to 3 Oct 18. Wounded 27 July 1916, remained at duty. GSW R leg (severe) 4 Sept 1917.

 

Keymer: Compositor, ex-apprentice with London & Norwich Press, enlisted 7 Sept 1914 aged 23. Posted and reposted between Norfolk battalions, the longer stays were: 8(S)/Norfolks, in France from 25 July 1915. 3/Norfolks Jan 1917, then 1/Norfolks 7 Mar 1917, 3rd Entrenching Bn 29 March 1917 for a month, then C Company, 9/Norfolks from 27 April 1917. 3/Norfolks 25 March 1918 (Kaiserschlacht offensive maybe?), back to 9/Norfolks a month later, and finally 1/Norfolks 1 July 1918 "posted 1st Bn (to Front)"; demob in Feb 1919. GSW left thigh and left hand ("bomb wound") 5 Oct 1916 (92 days in hospital, then another 50 days with a recurrence of the leg wound); gassed ("Shell Gas Yellow") 23 May 1918.

 

Cheers, Pat

[clk]

Hi Pat,

 

Just to confuse things a bit further, it appears that he went missing for some period of time - sufficient at least for a Miss Emily Carroll to make an enquiry to the Red Cross to see if he had been taken PoW. The index card is here. It is date stamped on the back with 10th June 1915, so the "missing since" date on the front must be 5th May 1915 - the date on which the battalion war diary records 75 casualties from gassing. The 'PA' references on the card have been crossed through - they appear to relate to a man of a similar name. I wonder if Miss Carroll was a bit quick off the mark, and John turned up later (for example in a hospital), or whether he was taken PoW, and was awarded his MM when he returned from captivity.

 

Regards

Chris

[Pat Atkins]

I would never have thought to check the Red Cross records, thanks Chris; perhaps the casualties were reported as such in the press or by someone on leave or whatever before John Howell later turned up, either physically or administratively. On the other hand, your idea about a MM awarded on his return from captivity after the Armistice is plausible too - will dig in this direction next. I wonder who Emily Carroll was? John married Edith Beckett on his return to Norfolk after the war. 

 

Cheers, Pat

[Kitty55]

Hi Pat

Might sound weird but have you tried the local newspapers for the area - it's where I've found most of my info on the normal rank and file who have earned awards. I've usually found at least a paragraph on them when everything other avenue only gave me a line, if that.

There are many Norfolk ones online now, either via FindMyPast or the British Newspapers Archive - unfortunately you have to pay for both sites.

 

Incidentally do you know if he's related to Henry William George HOWELL (born E. Dereham)  - the reason I'm asking is Henry's parents Henry Edwin and Emma Howell are listed at 7 Beresford Road, Lowestoft.

Henry W. G. died whilst serving in the 1/5 Norfolks (S/N 1898) at Gallipoli on - 12th August 1915 according to CWGC (SDGW - 28th August). Poor man aged 32 when he entered the war on 6th August 1915 according to his medal card (T of W - [2B] Balkans) and was dead/missing six days later. Yep, one of them lost ones that are talked about all the time - but I'm not getting into that discussion - they were found later in mass graves, all dead, so the official story is now 'Died in Hands of Turks'.

 

Thanks and take care, Kitty

Edited 30 March , 2017 by Kitty55

[Pat Atkins]

I don't think there's a family connection, but will check just in case Kitty and let you know if so; thanks for the hint about local papers, too. There's certainly not much documentary evidence from the Army left, it seems. 

 

Cheers, Pat

[Kitty55]

13 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

I don't think there's a family connection, but will check just in case Kitty and let you know if so; thanks for the hint about local papers, too. There's certainly not much documentary evidence from the Army left, it seems. 

 

Cheers, Pat

 

Thanks for that.

I know that lack in finding anything much feeling only too well and then with other soldiers I'm swapped with info from everywhere.

 

thanks and take care, Kitty

[Tillylil]

Hi Pat,

I am John Seymour Howell’s granddaughter Tracey.

He has three surviving children, Neville born 1922  Ivy (Meg) 1925 and my Dad John Denis 1933.

I was told he did receive a MM with bar, one was awarded for taking an officer off the barbed wire in no mans land

Apparently there were citations that hung o; the wall until the 1950’s.

His medals disappeared at the same time-it is thought he sold them to person unknown.

He died in March 1968 six weeks after his wife Edith Blomfield Beckett.

If I can offer any more information or if you have any to share please co tact me.

Kind regards

Tracey

[Pat Atkins]

Hi Tracey - will send you a PM.

 

Pat

[Tillylil]

1 hour ago, Pat Atkins said:

Hi Tracey - will send you a PM.

 

Pat

Hi Pat,

I am John Seymour Howell’s granddaughter Tracey.

He has three surviving children, Neville born 1922  Ivy (Meg) 1925 and my Dad John Denis 1933.

I was told he did receive a MM with bar, one was awarded for taking an officer off the barbed wire in no mans land

Apparently there were citations that hung o; the wall until the 1950’s.

His medals disappeared at the same time-it is thought he sold them to person unknown.

He died in March 1968 six weeks after his wife Edith Blomfield Beckett.

If I can offer any more information or if you have any to share please co tact me.

Kind regards

Tracey

 

I only joined the site yesterday so am unsure how the PM works as I was unable to send you one.

 

Edited 6 December , 2017 by Tillylil
Email address sent

[Tillylil]

Hi Pat,

Having spoken to my father his understanding is that my grandfather received two MM.

One was for delivering  ammuntion to a front line trench under fire. Apparently he carried blue scarred shrapnel wounds all his as a shell exploded en route.

Second one was for rescuing an officer who was caught in barbed wire in no mans land. Both the officer and my grandfather were taken as Pow by a German soldier but the story goes that my grandfather overcame the German soldier rendering him unconscious and escaped back to safety with the officer ( of course I accept without a citation that may well be family folklore)

It is thought that his medals and citations were sold to someone in Watton where my grandfather was stationed as a warrant officer in WW11.

Sadly they have never turned up so it’s anyone’s guess what happened to them.

[Derek Black]

The Yarmouth Independant of 22nd February 1919 has this brief statement:

 

"Private J.S. Howell, 1st Battalion Norfolk Regiment, 9058, has beeen awarded the Military Medal"

[edit] - Perhaps someone with a copy of "For Bravery in the Field" by Peter Warrington, can do a look up to see if he was awarded a bar?

Derek

Edited 6 December , 2017 by Derek Black

[charlie962]

Forces War Records have three Hospital Admissions for Howell 9058:  one Aug 1915 NYD Fever, one March 1916 Tubercle of Lung, and one July 1918 Pyrexia unknown origin.

 

Thus it is unlikely he was a prisoner of war.             edit- unless taken in the '100 days'

 

 

Incidentally the 1915 and 1916 records identify him as C company , 1st Bn

 

Charlie

 

Edited 6 December , 2017 by charlie962

[Pat Atkins]

Thanks for the continuing help and insight, it's much appreciated. Although I can't find evidence of a Bar, the family tradition is very strong so I shall keep looking - a Warrington look-up would be helpful indeed. Interesting to see those hospital admissions - he was eventually discharged with a Silver War Badge at the end of the war. The enquiry to the Red Cross about him being missing was in 1915 so I guess it's likely he wasn't a POW.

 

Cheers, Pat.