On Soldiers Effects not on CWGC? Help please! Kut - Vol Arty Battery

[charlie962]

Maureen. The document Dick Flory refers to is also held at the IWM. But I don't have access, unfortunately. There are 19 names on my list from CWGC in post 14; Of these 2 died before the fall of Kut (Bondville and Verona) and one died 1918 (Jons) but is not on my list of those taken at Kut. The rest are noted as taken at Kut. That makes 16. Add to that Pearse and Webb who died and were taken at Kut but are not on CWGC that makes 18. Interesting to see if that agrees with the Anderson document. But, typically, there is another death. FG Illingworth was on a hospital ship when he died after the war had ended. He'd previously served in the Boer war. (On CWGC Southampton). EDIT- McCarthy is on CWGC but I don't think taken at Kut thus bringing me back to 18 ? But nor was Rollins according to Dick Flory so I am down to 17?  EDIT EDIT  I forgot Francis WHYTE who is on the Baghdad Cemetery listing for CWGC. So back to 18 !!

                                          

 

Bardess and Rolt968. I have not succeded in finding a probate record or formal death notification for Pearse (nor Webb). Any ideas? What are the next steps to verify I haven't missed anything and that CWGC should be contacted?

 

It is sad to see how few of those already commemorated by CWGC have any family info attached.

P.S. I've changed thread title to emphasise that it covers various Kut and VolArtyBty people. Perhaps Moderators could move it to Mespot topic?

 

Charlie

Edited 25 March , 2017 by charlie962

[ss002d6252]

45 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Maureen. The document Dick Flory refers to is also held at the IWM. But I don't have access, unfortunately. There are 19 names on my list from CWGC in post 14; Of these 2 died before the fall of Kut (Bondville and Verona) and one died 1918 (Jons) but is not on my list of those taken at Kut. The rest are noted as taken at Kut. That makes 16. Add to that Pearse and Webb who died and were taken at Kut but are not on CWGC that makes 18. Interesting to see if that agrees with the Anderson document. But, typically, there is another death. FG Illingworth was on a hospital ship when he died after the war had ended. He'd previously served in the Boer war. (On CWGC Southampton)

                                          

 

Bardess and Rolt968. I have not succeded in finding a probate record or formal death notification for Pearse (nor Webb). Any ideas? What are the next steps to verify I haven't missed anything and that CWGC should be contacted?

 

It is sad to see how few of those already commemorated by CWGC have any family info attached.

P.S. I've changed thread title to emphasise that it covers various Kut and VolArtyBty people. Perhaps Moderators could move it to Mespot topic?

 

Charlie

The effects records will help with any submission to the cwgc.

 

Craig

[Bardess]

Sorry, Charlie, I looked for a Probate record but came up empty-handed. I suggest this thread should be in the Non-Comm section and that you contact Terry Denham with what you already have.

 

If anyone can take a look at FMP Overseas Deaths for Pearce/Pearse?

[ss002d6252]

55 minutes ago, Bardess said:

Sorry, Charlie, I looked for a Probate record but came up empty-handed. I suggest this thread should be in the Non-Comm section and that you contact Terry Denham with what you already have.

 

If anyone can take a look at FMP Overseas Deaths for Pearce/Pearse?

 

I can't see anything obvious in the overseas military or civilian death registers.

Craig

[clive_hughes]

Just in passing, I used to own the 1914-15 Star to No.49 Gnr. F.W.Sirr.  Anderson's account says he made an escape attempt from the railway ?below Ras-al-Ain, but was recaptured.  At least he survived.  

 

The medal was impressed in the Indian Army style, with "No." before the number, and square rather than round punctuation points.  

 

Clive

[charlie962]

On 23/03/2017 at 22:16, ss002d6252 said:

It's unusual to see the War Office paying men and handling their estates but them not being eligible for the war gratuity (I double checked the Army Order and they're definitely not listed as a qualifying unit). Another little thing regarding the War Gratuity that I'll make note of.

 

 

This man and others on the same page of Soldiers Effects have their entries specifically noted as 'not eligible for war gratuity' !

[ss002d6252]

10 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

 

 

This man and others on the same page of Soldiers Effects have their entries specifically noted as 'not eligible for war gratuity' !

If the Indian Army were to deal with him them he wouldn't get a British war gratuity - it looks like the wages etc which were initially settled up with were sorted by the War Office, which is why the initial entry was made (those in blue/black ink). All the men in the effects records were then reviewed when the war gratuity was introduced and any relevant gratuity was issued - for gratuity purposes the men appear to have been regarded as Indian Army for some reason and therefore not eligible as far as the War Office was concerned,

Craig

Edited 25 March , 2017 by ss002d6252

[jrah60]

On researching the names on the City of Glasgow WW1 RoH I came across 

Peter B. Gaston, Sgt., Burma Mobile Battery, 51 Exeter Drive, Partick, Glasgow.

Peter was born at 1111 Dumbarton Road, Whiteinch, Partick on 16th Dec 1892.
The 1901 census had him living at 51 Exeter Drive, Partick, Glasgow.

I cannot find an entry for him on CWGC or SNWM. There is no MIC, however there is an entry on Soldier’s Effects.

I have emailed the info to IFTC, however as there appears to be no DC or Service Return it is proving difficult to verify. 

Would anyone have any additional information?

John

 

[ss002d6252]

41 minutes ago, jrah60 said:

On researching the names on the City of Glasgow WW1 RoH I came across 

Peter B. Gaston, Sgt., Burma Mobile Battery, 51 Exeter Drive, Partick, Glasgow.

Peter was born at 1111 Dumbarton Road, Whiteinch, Partick on 16th Dec 1892.
The 1901 census had him living at 51 Exeter Drive, Partick, Glasgow.

I cannot find an entry for him on CWGC or SNWM. There is no MIC, however there is an entry on Soldier’s Effects.

I have emailed the info to IFTC, however as there appears to be no DC or Service Return it is proving difficult to verify. 

Would anyone have any additional information?

John

 

Oddly that was quite a late entry in to the register, other deaths on the the page date from 1921 or so. It's unusual for it to have taken that long to be settled.

It doesn't look like he was part of the British forces for war gratuity purposes as there's no war gratuity given.

Craig

[charlie962]

Looks like he emigrated Jan 1913, showing prev PermResid Scotland, new PermResid Burma, Occupation Draper

 

Couldn't find him on any casualty lists etc.

 

Of course this is probably the site (AngloBurmeseLibrary) to contact but it needs subscription and I don't have enough need to justify it;

 

Charlie

[MaureenE]

The Burmese Mobile Battery is probably another name for the Volunteer Artillery Battery.

 

The only other reference I have seen is a newspaper report

The Rangoon Times says:- It is regrettable that the first news of the Moblie Battery should be the sad news of the drowning of J C Jordan,… who was accidentally drowned in Mesopotamia on 31 July… the son of Mr Chater Jordan, the late well-known barrister of Rangoon.^[8].

[8] "India And The War" (1915, Aug 17), page 7 The Times of India 

 

Regarding the Soldiers Effects entry for Gaston, I wonder whether the fact that the entry is so late could indicate a death as a POW in Turkey? You could try searching by name in the ICRC records,

ICRC Prisoners of the First World War Home Page or there are some ICRC records you can scroll. The following are copied from the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Prisoners of the Turks (First World War) https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Prisoners_of_the_Turks_(First_World_War)

 

R 50410-R 50508. Also from this link scroll forward to the beginning of the file, which advises "C G1 E01-3.03 R 14246-14426 and R 50353 –R 50508. PG britanniques en mains turques". The first series R 14246-14426 seem to be largely in respect of deaths, while the latter series are mainly Lists of Prisoners at Camps, from Croissant Rouge Ottoman. Includes Indian Army soldiers. Note: there appear to be some unrelated records included.

R 50509-R 50840. Further List of Prisoners from Croissant Rouge Ottoman. Includes some Lists of deaths, with causes of death. Includes Indian Army soldiers. Note: there appear to be some unrelated records included.

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

Edit: Perhaps Dick Flory may see this topic, or you could PM him, to see whether Peter Gaston is on the list of  those who died at Kut, original from Major Anderson's account at IWM. As per post 25, I said 

"A subsequent post by Dick says

The source of my information is a photocopy of a handwritten manuscript titled With the Volunteer Artillery Battery in Kut and Mesopotamia, 1915-1916. It was most likely compiled by Major A. J. Anderson who commanded the Battery during that period as his name and address is written on the front interleaf"

Edited 13 December , 2017 by Maureene

[rolt968]

It might be worth looking if there is probate or equivalent anywhere: India, Scotland or England.

RM

[MaureenE]

 Given that for most purposes Volunteers are regarded as part of the Indian Army, even though  they were in Artillery units which were part of the Royal Artillery, (British Army), a  possible source from records at the British Library which would require either a personal visit, or a researcher.

 

IOR/L/MIL/14/142 1914-1921. Indian Army Officers Casualty Returns: Alphabetical lists of casualties by death among British officers of the Indian Services in the Great War giving rank, age, unit, date, place and cause.  British Library article about these records, which indicates Warrant Officer (Conductor) and NCO deaths are also included.

 

Cheers

Maureen

[charlie962]

14 hours ago, Maureene said:

ICRC Prisoners of the First World War

John,

I had checked this source when I commented 'couldn't find him on casualty lists etc' but because of the poor indexing it is easy to miss something. However I have previously spent a fair bit of time looking at ICRC records of the Volunteer Artillery Battery and his name has not cropped up.. yet.

 

The Volunteer Artillery Battery that served in Mesopotamia was made up of men from Rangoon but also Calcutta and Madras Volunteers.

 

As yet, without MIC or medal roll (whose availabilty via internet search is a bit hit or miss and certainly not comprehensive due to most medals being 'issued by Govt of India) we have no evidence that he ever went abroad?

 

I have also checked easily available Newspaper sources like British Newspaper Archive and Straits Times etc but not found anything. I repeat that my searching is NOT guaranteed!

 

Charlie

[jrah60]

Thanks everyone for all your information and suggestions.

I have emailed the Anglo Burmese Library asking if they would have any details on Peter Gaston, if not could they direct me to another possible source. As yet I’ve had no response.

I downloaded file WO 95/5028/4 - Volunteer Artillery Battery. Unfortunately the entry for August 1918 is marked “Confidential War Diary”. Drawn a blank on that one.

Also I phoned the National Archives and relayed all the details of Peter only to be told to Goole the Burma National Archives. I was somewhat disappointed with the response.

I would like this man to be commemorated, so I will keep searching……

John
 

[PaulC78]

I don't see PEARSE listed on CWGC - was a case never made for him? I've had a look but I can't add anything to what was posted above.

@charlie962 mentioned another man, L R A WEBB 54 named in a Times casualty list, but I can't find anything at all.

With regards to GASTON, there are several pension cards but they don't indicate how or where he died, so I don't know if they help move things along.

[charlie962]

43 minutes ago, PaulC78 said:

don't see PEARSE listed on CWGC - was a case never made for him? I'

Yes, on this thread.

but I've not spent money on request to GRO that is suggested by Maureene so no further forward. A shame. 

 

 

[rolt968]

10 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Yes, on this thread.

but I've not spent money on request to GRO that is suggested by Maureene so no further forward. A shame. 

 

 

I assume that you are having difficulty proving death and identity at/of death? I have never found the equivalent of a death certificate for Christison. However I did find probate both in India and England. Chris Harley suggested that that would be acceptable provided that I could link it to the other evidence. It was.

Have you found probate for Pearse anywhere?

RM

Edited 19 February , 2023 by rolt968

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, rolt968 said:

Have you founf probate for Pearse anywhere?

Thank you.

I'll double check although I don't remember..... 

Charlie

[MaureenE]

I would be surprised if there is a probate record for Gunner Pearse.

Regarding probate, this is a legal process which the executor undertakes if there is an estate left, in order to get moneys released. If there is no money, or valuables left,   there is no probate application or record.

Gunner Vincent  Pearse was born in Australia to a father who appeared to be in modest circumstances. Pearse ended up in Rangoon, probably also in modest circumstances. When he joined the Volunteer Artillery and left for Mesopotamia, I wouldn't be surprised if he disposed of/sold off any possessions he may have had, and left nothing behind in Rangoon. With no estate in Rangoon there would be no probate record in the Indian records. Similarly I think it unlikely he would have left an estate in Australia.

Maureen

[charlie962]

Interesting reply, Maureen, thanks.

Charlie

[MaureenE]

@charlie962 My late husband was a "boy from Bathurst" although a later generation. Even at this time (my late husband's generation) anyone with " get up and go" got up and left.  They might have had "get up" but they didn't have  money.

Maureen

[charlie962]

Thank you Maureen for this helpful understanding of 'context'.

Charlie