Major Edward "Mick" Mannock V.C.

[Gardenerbill]

I watched the Timewatch program WW1 Aces Falling last night and they gave a compelling case for the site of Mannocks grave. An unknown RFC officer found near where the Germans said they buried Mannock lies in a nearby cemetery. The program was first shown 6 or 7 years ago and I wondered if this had been followed up?

[thetrenchrat22]

Hi,  I'm sure that a case was put forward to the CWGC and was rejected.

[micks]

The submission was rejected.

You can't present a report to the CWGC based upon an assumption. They demand hard evidence.

We can't discount the possibility that another British airman was buried in the same locality 

and that the body of Mannock still lies out their somwhere.

If there was evidence that this officer held the rank of Major and that no other officer of this rank was

missing in this vicinity then the out come of this case would have been different.  

 

 Mick

 

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, micks said:

The submission was rejected.

You can't present a report to the CWGC based upon an assumption. They demand hard evidence.

 

 

 Mick

 

 

 

They seem to have lowered their threshold of "hard evidence" in the Kipling case?

 

Mike

[micks]

Mike

 

Yes the commission made some fundamental errors while analysing the evidence relating to the Kipling case.

Are you implying that they have replicated these same mistakes over the past twenty five years?

 

 

Mick

[Gardenerbill]

Wouldn't a DNA test sort this out? 

[micks]

Gardenerbill

 

The CWGC provides a pamphlet regarding the evidence which they will accept within a submission.

It is stated in this document that DNA will not be recovered from bodies which lie in existing cemeteries.

 

 

Mick

[Guest]

7 hours ago, micks said:

If there was evidence that this officer held the rank of Major and that no other officer of this rank was

missing in this vicinity then the out come of this case would have been different.  

 

     Do we know if the (1921?)  GRC exhumation report says anything about uniform, possessions,etc????

[micks]

GUEST

 

The unidentified British Airman is buried in grave III.F.12 at Laventie British Cemetery.

Unfortunately the CWGC website doesn't contain any exhumation reports for any of the men in this row.

 

 

Mick  

 

 

[Guest]

Shouldn't we just let them rest. Where does it stop?

 

Mike

[micks]

Skipman

 

I disagree with you.

I have submitted a number of cases to the CWGC for evaluation and I have been fortunate to

communicate with some of these men's families.

How would you react to the news that the remains of that grandfather which had been absent

from your life yet always spoken about had been located ?

A few years ago I had the privilege to be invited by a family to a remaining service. To see the

emotion among these people was something that you don't forget.

Although it is almost a century since the end of the war these events still provide the opportunity

for grieving and for closer.

 

Mick 

 

 

 

 

 

[David Filsell]

One sometimes feel that the CWGC considers that they actually own the bodies. They are merely guardians and should consider being far more open about matters like this.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, micks said:

Skipman

 

I disagree with you.

I have submitted a number of cases to the CWGC for evaluation and I have been fortunate to

communicate with some of these men's families.

How would you react to the news that the remains of that grandfather which had been absent

from your life yet always spoken about had been located ?

 

 

 

Mick 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Mick. That's fair enough. We all have our own on thoughts on this. I have a great uncle who lies out somewhere about "The Nab" i think if he was discovered by chance i would want him to have a decent funeral but to actively seek them is another matter and as said I think best left to rest in peace where they are.

 

 

[Gardenerbill]

19 hours ago, Skipman said:

Shouldn't we just let them rest. Where does it stop?

 

Mike

Mike,

I sympathise with your view, they are after all commemorated on memorials such as the Menin gate. On the other hand if we can identify someone so that their grave is marked shouldn't we at least try. I find one of the saddest things when visiting cemeteries is the number of unknowns. 

[David Filsell]

Shouldn't we just let them rest. Where does it stop?

Mike

 

No leaving them to rest if the relatives wish confirmation should be an CWGC obligation

David

[thetrenchrat22]

I'm involved in a case which there is clearly evidence that the soldier the CWGC say is buried in a grave is not him.

 

The GRR Form shows the details of my work colleagues great uncle and I have his permission and that of his uncle to research the case and get the headstone amended. 

[Guest]

   Skipman- Your point is fair enough. CWGC would, I think, have to embark on a wholesale DNA project to follow identification through to it's logical conclusion. Which CWGC would not do.

  However, I think the Commission has a duty to identify and commemorate the dead as far as it reasonably can- and I think "reasonable" in these matters is usually to the standards of identification available in the 1920's-with the odd DNA thrown in for newly discovered remains-which,after all, are being dealt with by CWGC for the first time and thus the case for DNA and more modern techniques is made- the best available means of ID at the time the remains are discovered.

     With Mannock, the matter appears to be close enough to warrant a degree of effort- the location of remains of an unknown British airman are so close to where the German report specified that the odds fall in favour of it being Mannock.  The fact that the remains are identified as a British airman suggest there was some form of uniform or inisgnia remains left- and measurement of remains to gauge height in life is a pretty standard routine in pathology.So, to me the prime aim of the Commission-to identify and commemorate is being needlessly avoided. Of course, Mannock is a celebrity and he should not be accorded privileged access to resources for ID against the thousands upon thousands of Poor Bloody Infantry who would not. On the other hand, Mannock has the right to be identified and commemorated properly- with his individuality  and uniquenes restored.

 

[Guest]

On 3/15/2017 at 16:22, Gardenerbill said:

An unknown RFC officer found near where the Germans said they buried Mannock lies in a nearby cemetery.

 

      Hmm- Just a thought-long after the documentary and based upon my (useless) memory-  Does the CWGC grave say RFC or RAF??????    I seem to remember that the last photograph(s) of Mannock show him with RAF insignia -cap badge??)  If the unknown is listed as RFC then will that preclude it being Mannock-he being RAF. I guess that CWGC would not put anything unless sure it was RFC or RAF. OK, "unknown airman" dodges the issue-but what badge is on the grave??

[Guest]

On 16/03/2017 at 08:07, micks said:

Mike

 

Yes the commission made some fundamental errors while analysing the evidence relating to the Kipling case.

Are you implying that they have replicated these same mistakes over the past twenty five years?

 

 

Mick

 

Hi Mike. Sorry I missed this. No not implying anything, just pointing out the fact that they, like anyone, can make errors.

 

Mike

[micks]

 

Skipman

 

Yes it was a very large error but with a new system and people in place it is highly unlikely that it will occur again.

However having said that the commission is reliant on their records which do have errors.

 

Mick