MotherMave Posted 12 March , 2017 Share Posted 12 March , 2017 Hi, I am hoping that someone may be able to shed some light on these two soldiers, firstly Albert ROBERTS:- Rank:Private Service No:54649 Date of Death:22/04/1918 Age:24 Regiment/Service:Royal Welsh Fusiliers 13th Bn. Panel Reference: Panel 36 and 37. Memorial:POZIERES MEMORIAL Additional Information: Son of Mrs. Elizabeth Davies (formerly Roberts), of Nurses Home, Brymbo, Wrexham, Denbighshire, and the late Edward Roberts. I know that his Uncle William ROBERTS was his Sole Legatee and Executor and that they lived at the White Horse Hotel, Overton. There was 2 more ROBERTS, Soldiers with that address, William Jan (Jun.?) and Edward who survived, were these Albert's brothers or Uncles? A William Jun. ROBERTS signed Albert's Flintshire WW1 Index Card. Now Alfred ROBERTS, his Flintshire WW1 Index Cards (Overton F 22) - ROBERTS, Alfred, Tanhouse Row, Overton 274910 10th R.W.F. L/Cpl. Period of Service 3 years 85 days. September 1914 to November 1917. Served in France September 1915 – June 1916. Died from Consumption 27th June 1919. Card signed by S. CHESWORTH, no date. I can find nothing on this soldier, no CWGC entry that I can find. Any help gratefully received. Kind regards, Mavis Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 12 March , 2017 Share Posted 12 March , 2017 The soldiers effects records show that Albert's effects were paid to his uncle William - the war gratuity shows he had 25 months qualifying service at the time of his death. Alfred doesn't seem to have a soldiers effects entry - this would indicate that he had been discharged from the army before he died and his war gratuity had been dealt with by the paymaster before he died, hence no need to involve the effects branch. Alfred's death would need to be caused by or attributed to his service to have a CWGC grave as he died after discharge from the army. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langdon Posted 12 March , 2017 Share Posted 12 March , 2017 (edited) Ref. Alfred Roberts 274910 on Ancestry - Formerly 15345 10th Battalion RWF - disembarked France 27.09.15. He received the Silver War Badge as Lance/Corporal in the 424th Agric.Co., having enlisted on 01.09.14. He was discharged on 24.11.17 at the age of 35 due to sickness. You might like to see this previous thread on Agricultural companies. Mike Edited 12 March , 2017 by Langdon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 12 March , 2017 Share Posted 12 March , 2017 The Silver War Badge records show that Alfred was discharged on 24 Nov 17 under para 392 xvi of the Kings Regulations due to sickness. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 12 March , 2017 Share Posted 12 March , 2017 Alfred does have a surviving service record - http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007282872%2f00107&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7282872%2f12%2f107&highlights="" It states the illness he was discharged for was aggravated by service - he was suffering from TB when discharged. It may be possible to link this to the cause of death sufficiently to have him added to the CWGC. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherMave Posted 12 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 12 March , 2017 Thanks you so much for your swift replies, Sadly I have no access to Find my Past, as I also have Ancestry and had to decide which one I could keep, but at least I have the link, thank you Craig and also to your telling me he had 25 qualifying months before his discharge. Thank you also Mike for the information on Alfred and the link to the Agricultural Companies, I will have a look now. This is a wonderful forum, I would be lost without you all. Kind regards, Mavis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 12 March , 2017 Share Posted 12 March , 2017 (edited) .Please ignore. Edited 12 March , 2017 by ss002d6252 My error ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Earley Posted 12 March , 2017 Share Posted 12 March , 2017 5 hours ago, MotherMave said: Sadly I have no access to Find my Past, Can you not access Find my Past at your local library ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherMave Posted 12 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 12 March , 2017 5 hours ago, ss002d6252 said: . Yes of course, Thank you. Mavis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherMave Posted 12 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 12 March , 2017 Craig I know you sent me a message, I was notified by email, - but it didn't come up on this page, I am replying to say thank you so much for looking into Alfred's service, it is intriguing and I would have had no idea to look at the evidence as you have. I appreciate it so much as the records are daunting for someone who is not familiar with Army Life and records. Kind regards, Mavis Hi MotherMave,ss002d6252 has posted a comment on a topic, Alfred and Albert ROBERTS ss002d6252 said: Alfred has an interesting service (in my mind anyway !) - a long read, but I'm working through step by step. We know he enlisted Sep 14 and was discharged in Nov 17 - so 39 months service but he only received war gratuity for 25 months, this tells us that he had a period where he did not qualify for war gratuity for 14 months which jumped out at me. Usually this was because a man had either been released for munitions work or he'd deserted for a period but there are other reasons, including being used for agricultural work - 424 agricultural company suggests this is possibly the case however.... Para 27(v) of AO 17 of 1919 states a man would cease to accrue gratuity where Quote (v) In the case of a soldier in agricultural employment, the whole of any continuous period of more than 8 months during which he may have been so employed and in receipt of civil pay under the conditions of ACI 1155 of 1917. (I've never seen an agricultural case for the gratuity before so wasn't sure whether it was only the period over 8 months which didn't qualify or the whole period didn't qualify if the entire period was for more than 8 months) He served in France from 27 Sep 15 to 2 June 16 - knowing he enlisted 01 Sep 14 tells us that this accounted 22 months qualifying service. We are left with 17 months of service of which only 3 were qualifying for War Gratuity purposes (to give him the 25 months). He was only transferred to 424 Agricultural Company in May 17 so he couldn't lose any War Gratuity due to that (as he couldn't have been on Agricultural work for more than 8 continuous months). I'm at a loss at the moment to explain why he appears to have lost 14 months War Gratuity Craig Go to this post — Great War Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 12 March , 2017 Share Posted 12 March , 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, MotherMave said: Craig I know you sent me a message, I was notified by email, - but it didn't come up on this page, I am replying to say thank you so much for looking into Alfred's service, it is intriguing and I would have had no idea to look at the evidence as you have. I appreciate it so much as the records are daunting for someone who is not familiar with Army Life and records. Kind regards, Mavis Hi MotherMave,ss002d6252 has posted a comment on a topic, Alfred and Albert ROBERTS ss002d6252 said: Alfred has an interesting service (in my mind anyway !) - a long read, but I'm working through step by step. We know he enlisted Sep 14 and was discharged in Nov 17 - so 39 months service but he only received war gratuity for 25 months, this tells us that he had a period where he did not qualify for war gratuity for 14 months which jumped out at me. Usually this was because a man had either been released for munitions work or he'd deserted for a period but there are other reasons, including being used for agricultural work - 424 agricultural company suggests this is possibly the case however.... Para 27(v) of AO 17 of 1919 states a man would cease to accrue gratuity where Quote (v) In the case of a soldier in agricultural employment, the whole of any continuous period of more than 8 months during which he may have been so employed and in receipt of civil pay under the conditions of ACI 1155 of 1917. (I've never seen an agricultural case for the gratuity before so wasn't sure whether it was only the period over 8 months which didn't qualify or the whole period didn't qualify if the entire period was for more than 8 months) He served in France from 27 Sep 15 to 2 June 16 - knowing he enlisted 01 Sep 14 tells us that this accounted 22 months qualifying service. We are left with 17 months of service of which only 3 were qualifying for War Gratuity purposes (to give him the 25 months). He was only transferred to 424 Agricultural Company in May 17 so he couldn't lose any War Gratuity due to that (as he couldn't have been on Agricultural work for more than 8 continuous months). I'm at a loss at the moment to explain why he appears to have lost 14 months War Gratuity Craig Go to this post — Great War Forum Please scrap that post - I was looking at the wrong record (long day and little sleep) so to be truthful it was a load of rubbish from me Craig Edited 12 March , 2017 by ss002d6252 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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