German III Corps attack British/German accounts. Royals Scots Fusiliers etc

[dansparky]

The British Official History states that the attack of the German III began at 11 am.  Zuber and others have argued that III Corps attack did not begin until just after 2 pm.  Haubner Hauptmann (Unter Emmich vor Liittich, Unter Kluck vor Paris)  records the attack in this sector by his  20th Infantry regiment, 5th division III Corps on the positions at Jemappes.  This is referenced in the official British History, I am not sure if this work mentions the times of the attacks, I think it has only been printed in German and is hard to obtain.  Subsequent British histories mention the attacks in this sector beginning at 11 am.   Does anybody know of any first-hand accounts (British (1st Royal scots fusiliers etc or German) that record or suggest the time of the attack?

[dansparky]

Update, 1st Royal scots fusiliers war diary states that heavy attacks began at 11am.  As we know elements of the german 5th division launched an attack at Jemappes Bloem's  Grenadier Regiment "Prince Carl von Prussia" No 2 Brandenburg No.12. was part of III corps, 6 division and had seen heavy fighting as well, slightly to the east.  The Heavy fighting featuring these two divisions and the time of attack recorded in the 1RSF war diary would indicate that the majority of German III corps would have become engaged in the fighting.  Therefore, the 12 out of 16 Infantry regiments sufficiently engaged at mons as argued by Zuber is likely understated.  A full 3 hours earlier would mean that from 11am the British 2 Corps faced 4 divisions against their two rather than fighting on an even footing until 2pm. 

Edited 2 March , 2017 by dansparky

[AOK4]

Hello,

 

I checked some regimental histories (8, 12, 20, 35, 48, 52 and 64 Infantry Regiments). As far as they mention exact hours, they indicate that the fighting started in the IX Corps area and their frontguards (Grenadier-Regiment 12) made contact before noon. It seemed to have taken some more hours for the rest of the columns to reach the attack assembly areas and the attack seems to have started only at 3 pm.

 

I would agree that not all of the regiments were engaged as heavily (some were hardly engaged at all).

 

You have to take care with Bloem's account as he was in the frontguard.

 

Jan

[dansparky]

Thanks Jan,

 

Whose attack began at 3?  6th or 5th division?  this is interesting.  Zuber argues that III corps began at 2pm where as OBH states 11am, I royals scots fusiliers agrees with this, it mentions heavy attack at 11am.   This is the near side through of III corps and on the swing round of German columns.

Edited 2 March , 2017 by dansparky

[dansparky]

The 2nd Battalion Kings own Scottish Borders however, (to the west of st ghislian, far right of the German 5th division III crops) record that they were called into action from noon.

 

 

 

Taking a look at IV sector further to the west.  The OBH states that these positions began to be attacked by 5 pm, Zuber just says very late in the day.   The 1st Cameronians say that by 1 pm the 1st Middlesex were heavily engaged.  The second battalion Argyll % Sutherland highlanders record the Middlesex Regt report they were hard pressed at 12 pm.  The Middlesex themselves record that there right flank is attacked at 5 pm.

 

the 1st east surrey regiment record that they we much pressed from 1am ... several casualties quickly occurred... by 3pm attack pressed al along the line.  Further along the line the 1st Duke of Cornwall light infantry record the were pressed from 4.45pm.

 

Edited 2 March , 2017 by dansparky

[AOK4]

Remember also the difference between British and German time...

 

Jan

[dansparky]

6 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Remember also the difference between British and German time...

 

Jan

 

Jan come again?

I had never thought of that.   Are yo saying Zuber might be off because he did not take into account British and German times?  But unless I am mistaken there is only an hour difference between the Uk and Germany.  How would this account for the discrepancy?  Zuber says 2pm, British say 11am?   Would the British not have synced their watches to french times in any event?

 

DS