4thGordons Posted 26 February , 2017 Share Posted 26 February , 2017 Could anyone confirm the unit markings here and shed some light on the last marking (all on a recently acquired 1889 Danzing G. Mod 88) First the unit markings: 58.R. R.6.184 110. R. 9. 226 And then a manufacturer mark? Thanks in advance, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 February , 2017 Share Posted 26 February , 2017 8 minutes ago, 4thGordons said: Could anyone confirm the unit markings here and shed some light on the last marking (all on a recently acquired 1889 Danzing G. Mod 88) 58.R. R.6.184 110. R. 9. 226 And then a manufacturer mark? First one should be (1877 regulations up to 1909 version) 58 Reserve Regiment 6 Company weapon 184 Second is (1909 regulations) 110 Reserve Regiment 9 Company weapon 226. The change in style comes with the 1909 regulations (if I remember correctly). A script R.R is a reserve infantry regiment by the 1877 regulations, but is a recruiting depot by the 1909 ones - but these don't normally have company numbers (and anyway this mark is the older one). A script R with the 1909 regulations is a reserve regiment The last mark is a new one to me... Re-conditioning? Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 26 February , 2017 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2017 Could 7 minutes ago, trajan said: The last mark is a new one to me... Re-conditioning? Julian Could be - it is on the steel cover that blocks the bottom of the magazine (not actually sure what to call it!) on the 88/05 and 88/14 variants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 February , 2017 Share Posted 26 February , 2017 I had a quick look in Storz Vol 2 (88 and 91 firearms) and nothing there like it, nor in any of my German reference works. And off to bed now but I'll think on... Has this one been altered in any way? Note also that official marks (production, etc.,) are usually on the receiver... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 26 February , 2017 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2017 (edited) 40 minutes ago, trajan said: I had a quick look in Storz Vol 2 (88 and 91 firearms) and nothing there like it, nor in any of my German reference works. And off to bed now but I'll think on... Has this one been altered in any way? Note also that official marks (production, etc.,) are usually on the receiver... These parts were added when the rifles were modified from the original format to take the "S" patrone (pointed (spitzer) bullet) and use mauser style stripper clips and allow for single loading (rather than the earlier en-bloc style clip). As I understand it, the change in bullet also required to some modifications to the chamber and bore (rifles modified being designated Model 88S). These changes were started in 1905 (leading to the 88/05 designation) and then there was a very similar set of modifications started in 1914 so there is also an 88/14 designation although I am unclear as to the precise distinction and if there was a difference apart from the date of the program. So yes, the rifle has been modified and has the large S stamp on the receiver to indicate this. This part would have been added at this time I believe. Chris Edited 26 February , 2017 by 4thGordons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 26 February , 2017 Share Posted 26 February , 2017 Chris, I have seen that part described as a "sheet steel magazine cover". I assume that odd marking is the manufacturer's logo with the date of manufacture. It could be any old sheet metal workshop that made them. I happen to have a very good reference by Walter which goes into quite a lot of detail on these Gew 88 conversions, so if you wanted to post a photo of the breech and stripper loading system that might help. Also look for a small "n" marking located around the barrel, chamber area, as that could indicate that it was part of the conversions that were done in 1914. There are differences between the 88/05 and 88/14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 February , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2017 No "n" that I can see: Standard imperial proofs, S stamp and Turkish moon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 27 February , 2017 Share Posted 27 February , 2017 Looks to be in fairly nice condition for a Gew 88 that came through the Turkish "system".! So it appears to have had a couple of conversions in its time. Firstly the upgrade to the S-Patrone cartridge from 1903, becoming the Gew 88/S (S mark) and subsequently being converted for charger loading, the standard Gew 88/05 configuration, from 1906. This involved the addition of a cutout on the breech, and on the side of the receiver for the thumb to press the rounds into the magazine. The charger guides were attached over the receiver and some modifications were made to the interior of the magazine. The magazine cover was added to cover the hole in the bottom as it now served no purpose. Some of the 88/05 were later retrofitted with these from 1914, which would explain the date that is stamped on yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 February , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2017 Thanks for that. Confirms what I thought in the main. I took a bit of a gamble on this rifle because I thought it looked more original than the other example I have (and it was Cheap!) it is indeed in very nice shape (bore etc is excellent and it has the earlier rear sight with the longer "thumb" adjuster on the right side.) The seller did not mention the Turkish marking (also on the bolt) which is a little disappointing but given the price I really cannot complain at all. I suspect it has been refinished (probably after surplussing out) although it was done reasonably sympathetically and probably quite a long time ago - it may be that this is the arsenal refinish. There are no import stamps on the rifle (required in the US since 1968) so that probably means it was an earlier import. I suppose I shall have to look for a pointy thing for it now. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 27 February , 2017 Share Posted 27 February , 2017 May I suggest one of these "pointy things" ... the Seitengewehr 1871 Regular issue with the Gew 88 during the war, usually to 2nd-line Landwehr and Landsturm troops. But unfortunately you will probably have to sell the rifle in order to buy the bayonet ... knowing you that ain't going to happen.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 February , 2017 Share Posted 27 February , 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, shippingsteel said: Looks to be in fairly nice condition for a Gew 88 that came through the Turkish "system".! So it appears to have had a couple of conversions in its time. Firstly the upgrade to the S-Patrone cartridge from 1903, becoming the Gew 88/S (S mark) and subsequently being converted for charger loading, the standard Gew 88/05 configuration, from 1906. This involved the addition of a cutout on the breech, and on the side of the receiver for the thumb to press the rounds into the magazine. The charger guides were attached over the receiver and some modifications were made to the interior of the magazine. The magazine cover was added to cover the hole in the bottom as it now served no purpose. Some of the 88/05 were later retrofitted with these from 1914, which would explain the date that is stamped on yours. Would you be so kind as to provide a reference for that 1903 date? But note that the Gew.88/S is strictu sensu, according to the chap who has looked at the documents(Storz!) a Gew 88 that has been adapted for 'S'ammunition AND has sights adapted for this. As for the Gew 88/05, this was approved for service with that designation in January 1907, trials having taken place from April-October 1906 - again Storz. Edited 27 February , 2017 by trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 February , 2017 Share Posted 27 February , 2017 7 hours ago, shippingsteel said: May I suggest one of these "pointy things" ... the Seitengewehr 1871 Regular issue with the Gew 88 during the war, usually to 2nd-line Landwehr and Landsturm troops. But unfortunately you will probably have to sell the rifle in order to buy the bayonet ... knowing you that ain't going to happen.! Cheaper than a rifle where I come from! Of the four that I have, three are unit-marked, and one has a shrapnel/bullet scar on the crossguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 February , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2017 2 hours ago, trajan said: Would you be so kind as to provide a reference for that 1903 date? I suspect that the 1903 date may refer to April 1903 when the 7.92x57 S Patrone was officially introduced (after which modification would be needed) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 February , 2017 Share Posted 28 February , 2017 (edited) On 2/27/2017 at 03:45, 4thGordons said: No "n" that I can see: Standard imperial proofs, S stamp and Turkish moon. Hi Chris, In case you did not know I thought I'd explain those 'fraktur' markings from right to left - well, as I understand them. The first one (partly visible) was applied after the barrel and bolt was inspected and approved for further work. The second was applied after the barrel and bolt had been 'power-proofed', i.e., test-fired. The third one was applied to indicate that the receiver had been hardened. The mark above this looks to be a crowned 'RC' mark, as these were apparently usually placed here, over the third 'fraktur'. This means that something wrong had been noticed at the time it came around to the third inspection and so the weapon was submitted to a 'Revision Commission' for checking and they approved it for issue as whatever the original reason for initially rejecting the item for approval, it stilled fulfilled the fit and function requirements.... If it is not an 'RC' mark, then as I understand it, this will be the inspection mark added after the receiver was adapted The 'St' mark is apparently a mystery one - I have seen a reference to that somewhere in the literature but as rifles are not my thing I can't remember where! I'll try and find it... The 'S' cartridge was indeed introduced 1903 - officially approved, as I understand it, on 23 March that year. The 'S' mark on yours should indicate that if it was in service use, then it was modified between then and an official deadline of 01 October 1905. Apparently a trained team could do 35-40 rifles per hour! But note, this not make it an '88 S', as that version has the re-calibrated sight for use with 'S' ammunition. Note incidentally also that until 1890, the maker's mark was usually central to the receiver before being moved to a lower position. Are there no marks on the other side of the receiver? What about butt marks? On the Turkish side of things, the original plan was that to send all those 88/05 rifles not used by occupation troops to the Ottoman Empire during the summer of 1916. Bavaria was ready to send 50,000 in the summer of 1917, and a total of 130,000 were sent in November 1917. These were usually/always marked with Farsi (Ottoman) numbers on the sight - what do you have? Best wishes, Julian Edited 28 February , 2017 by trajan Add extra information - the sight marking question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 28 February , 2017 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2017 (edited) The left receiver rail has the model mark and serial number and a couple of small stamps. There are traces of Fraktur style stampings on the right of the butt but they have largely been erased by refinishing the wood at some time in the last century. The rear sight has standard "arabic" numbers, I am not certain if it has been modified or not. The left side of the sight base is stamped 7,93 which may be a clue. (hmm photo upload has failed -- I will investigate and post them when I work out what is wrong!) Edited 28 February , 2017 by 4thGordons add pics (WORKING NOW!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 March , 2017 Share Posted 1 March , 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, 4thGordons said: The rear sight has standard "arabic" numbers, I am not certain if it has been modified or not. Yes Chris, your rear sight has been modified to accommodate the S-Patrone ammunition. The existing graduations and numbering have been partly erased with the new range numbering quite roughly stamped in. The original leaf sight would have shown graduations from 450 - 2,050 metres. Your current sight leaf shows graduations from 500 - 2,000 metres and the stampings are in different positions, as per the changed trajectory profile for the S-Patrone. Edited 1 March , 2017 by shippingsteel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 March , 2017 Share Posted 1 March , 2017 PS. I am now wondering if this piece of "rough workmanship" was undertaken during its Turkish ownership. Because it does appear to only have involved scrubbing of the numerals and their replacement, the graduations seem to be the same, and it is NOT an earlier type sight leaf. Being a Turkish used Gew 88 it most likely had the Eastern-Arabic numerals on the leaf originally when it was shipped from Germany. Apparently during one of Attaturk's reforms he ordered the removal of all signs of the old Ottoman writing and numbers, so I believe that is what we may be seeing here. The style of workmanship is decidedly Turkish.! Of course this had no effect on the rear sight's effectiveness in aiming the round. It was always and continued to be appropriate for the S-Patrone ammunition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 March , 2017 Share Posted 1 March , 2017 10 hours ago, shippingsteel said: PS. I am now wondering if this piece of "rough workmanship" was undertaken during its Turkish ownership. Because it does appear to only have involved scrubbing of the numerals and their replacement, the graduations seem to be the same, and it is NOT an earlier type sight leaf. Being a Turkish used Gew 88 it most likely had the Eastern-Arabic numerals on the leaf originally when it was shipped from Germany. Apparently during one of Attaturk's reforms he ordered the removal of all signs of the old Ottoman writing and numbers, so I believe that is what we may be seeing here. The style of workmanship is decidedly Turkish.! Of course this had no effect on the rear sight's effectiveness in aiming the round. It was always and continued to be appropriate for the S-Patrone ammunition. Well, certainly an odd- and make-shift piece of work there. I'll try and copy some of the original documentation on this matter to post later, but I would object to SS's characterisation of this as 'decidedly Turkish'! The secondary numbers are too neatly done and positioned! And as for "Apparently during one of Attaturk's reforms he ordered the removal of all signs of the old Ottoman writing and numbers", there is simply no hard evidence for this statement that I am aware of. However, I can go with that reasoning - but even so, it begs the question: why wasn't the sight provided with 'Farsi' numbers' in the first place? Look carefully to see if it has been milled for the new numbers. Be that as it may, certainly a story here... 18 hours ago, 4thGordons said: The left receiver rail has the model mark and serial number and a couple of small stamps. So, 'crown' to indicate Prussian supply and useage - I think! I'll try and find out more about the others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 March , 2017 Share Posted 1 March , 2017 Don't quote me on this but on the Gew.98, the 'B' mark before the serial number indicates that the Bismarkhütte rolling mills provided the steel rod that became the barrel, and so perhaps likewise for your Gew.88? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gew88/05 Posted 1 March , 2017 Share Posted 1 March , 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, shippingsteel said: PS. I am now wondering if this piece of "rough workmanship" was undertaken during its Turkish ownership. Because it does appear to only have involved scrubbing of the numerals and their replacement, the graduations seem to be the same, and it is NOT an earlier type sight leaf. Being a Turkish used Gew 88 it most likely had the Eastern-Arabic numerals on the leaf originally when it was shipped from Germany. Apparently during one of Attaturk's reforms he ordered the removal of all signs of the old Ottoman writing and numbers, so I believe that is what we may be seeing here. The style of workmanship is decidedly Turkish.! Of course this had no effect on the rear sight's effectiveness in aiming the round. It was always and continued to be appropriate for the S-Patrone ammunition. Absolutely correct in your assessment shippingsteel. The crudely stamped numbers were done (after re-milling) by the Turkish military for the reason you stated. Sorry Julian. Edited 1 March , 2017 by Gew88/05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 March , 2017 Share Posted 1 March , 2017 (edited) Thanks for the confirmation Gew88/05. I have seen it stated that this "re-milling" work was done post 1928, during one refurbishment programme or another. Do you have anything further on the timeline involved.? I think 'just about anything goes' with these Turkish rifles.! Edited 1 March , 2017 by shippingsteel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gew88/05 Posted 4 March , 2017 Share Posted 4 March , 2017 Your time line sounds correct but my notes are in storage while we change rooms - all of my gun information is "in storage". *sigh* I also have the name of the maker as shown on 4thGordons' magazine cover, but can no longer remember it, hopefully I will find that in a couple of weeks when I can unpack. IIRC, it is the mark of a well known German manufacturer of steel toys. Isn't it funny how memories fade with age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 March , 2017 Share Posted 5 March , 2017 On 3/1/2017 at 21:25, Gew88/05 said: Absolutely correct in your assessment shippingsteel. The crudely stamped numbers were done (after re-milling) by the Turkish military for the reason you stated. Sorry Julian. Not a problem there! Note my CYA get-out clause in no.18 - " However, I can go with that reasoning - but even so, it begs the question: why wasn't the sight provided with 'Farsi' numbers' in the first place? Look carefully to see if it has been milled for the new numbers." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gew88/05 Posted 5 March , 2017 Share Posted 5 March , 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amberg Posted 4 April , 2017 Share Posted 4 April , 2017 On 4.3.2017 at 19:22, Gew88/05 said: IIRC, it is the mark of a well known German manufacturer of steel toys. Isn't it funny how memories fade with age? With your permission. Firma Ernst Paul Lehmann Patentwerk Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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