Why not blackend cap badges like RC's and Aussies?

[bkristof]

I just wonder.

Why didn't they blacked all cap badges in WW1 ? just like the Aussies and the rifle brigades and rifle corps?

Or did they do that? Maybe for "special" duties?

I imagine doing a stealth action with cap was out of the question. Or scouting with it.

Does anyone has info on this?

thx,

kristof

[Paul Reed]

Because blackened badges denote rifle regiments and not all regiments were rifle regiments, nor did they want to be!

Some units adopted a dull bronze issue of their badge; i.e. the Liverpool Pals swopped a bright silver one for a bronze badge.

[bkristof]

So proud was more important to the army than "camouflage".

I understand. But why the Aussies stayed with their blacked badges like in the Boer war? They weren't rifle regiments...

And where did the tradition of the black badges for rifle regiments came from?

[Guest steveb21]

Mate,

We didn't blacken our badges its just that we didn't polish them and were allowed to dullen.

Can I say that I well remember having to polish my RS bagdes so this was only in the field not in camp or for duties. But of cause my time was well after the great war so weather this was done then I can find no record that they were polished during that war.

S.B

[Guest]

I don't suppose cap badges mattered much once helmets were issued, but what about collar dogs, buttons and epaulet badges? Were they normally allowed just to dull down?

Mind you, there was probably a lot of stupidity. Even in WWII in Normandy, the Germans commented that you could spot British officers because the blanco on their map cases made them stand out.

[bkristof]

That is true angie.

Logic is not a familiar word in the military dictionary.

[Joe Sweeney]

but what about collar dogs, buttons and epaulet badges? Were they normally allowed just to dull down?

All Brass/metal was supposed to be allowed to dull for and on active service. This included buttons, brass ends to web equipment and insignia. This was a pre-war mandate. Button brasses were not even supposed to be carried on active service.

However, there were some very unenlightened Commanders who ignored this regulation.

Joe Sweeney

[PhilB]

Their highly polished brass instruments attracted the attention of the German Artillery during one of their first Divisional Band practices. A lot less spit n polish from then on in.

The Divisional band standing around playing their instruments, but totally invisible to the German looking through his Zeisses when they didn`t polish their trumpets?? Phil B

[Paul Reed]

So proud was more important to the army than "camouflage".

I understand. But why the Aussies stayed with their blacked badges like in the Boer war? They weren't rifle regiments...

To be honest, I don't think it was such a major problem. I can't ever recall the story of a soldier being shot by a sniper because his cap badge drew fire!

I am also pretty sure the Australians' badge was bronze rather than blackened; there is a difference. Bronze is naturally duller, and blackened badges are usual brass ones with a blackened coating.

Below is a photo of a soldier of the 2nd Essex in the trenches at Ploegsteert in 1914/15. As you see, his badge doesn't stand out that much!

[bkristof]

But if we compare it to the German army:

They removed the spikes

They made covers for their spike helmets, even for ersatz, non shiny helmets.

I aggree on the brass badges, but i was told that was officers only, possibly a sellers trick...

[Paul Reed]

And British soldiers wore non-standard headgear as well like this fellow below, a friend of the lad above.

Picklehaube badges were a little larger than British Army cap badges... !

[bkristof]

And British soldiers wore non-standard headgear as well like this fellow below, a friend of the lad above.

Picklehaube badges were a little larger than British Army cap badges... !

I know, I know.

But i think non regular head gear was more popular in the British army than the German army.

I think this can be an important fact.

It is strange the Brits never did something to cover them, that is all i just remarked.

Because the French even "camouflaged" their kepi.

But like you said Paul, there are no know stories of soldiers sniped because of their capbadge, even not scottish white metal ones like A& S H.

I don't know about the French, i only heard the Germans had some problems with it...

So conclusion:

The Brit army didn't blackened them because there was no need to do that.

That is an exception in comparing other WW1 armies >>> so they were better preparde?

[PhilB]

Ever seen the sun glinting on polished brass?

Binoculars aren't much good around corners or through buildings.

Try a put down on someone else for a change.

Thank you, Barong. When I was serving, all brass was highly polished (and buckets, dustbins etc) and the sun did occasionally shine, though it was before global warming. Thanks for pointing out that binoculars can`t see through walls - many forum members may have been in doubt about that! My point was that having the divisional band playing within sight of the Germans and within artillery range doesn`t seem a very good idea - whether the instruments are polished or not. I can`t see much to argue about there!

[bkristof]

But to post a proof that they can shine too Paul, this picture of 1914 - 1915

1 cap badge is very shiny (left)

[bkristof]

And didn't these Lnd. Scots., who are believed to come back from a trench raid, removed their cap badges? Was that allowed?

Because i read somewhere that if you were spotted with a cap, glenn or whatever whitout a badge (were there should be one) you could be courtmartialed!

And you had to pay for a new one. The same for shoulder titles.

Or is it a posed "fake" picture?

[PhilB]

I suspect that in WW1 the capbadge had a particular significance in that, if you looked over the bags, you were only visible from the cheekbones up. So the capbadge would stand out and invite a sniper`s attention. If your whole head is visible, as in BK`s picture, it doesn`t stand out quite so much - in fact the face is possibly more obvious than the badge. It wouldn`t have taken me long to remove my badge in those conditions if I was on sentry duty and obliged to look over the top! Or turn the cap round like a modern day baseball cap? Phil B

[bkristof]

It wouldn`t have taken me long to remove my badge in those conditions if I was on sentry duty and obliged to look over the top! Or turn the cap round like a modern day baseball cap? Phil B

Isn't there a picture like that in Gallipoli??

[Joe Sweeney]

Disposal of Regimental badges was quite common very early in the war.

GRO 55 (3 Sept 1914) was published prohibiting soldiers from discarding cap badges. This GRO remained in effect through-out the war indicating a continued practice.

I agree with Paul in any event it was not a big deal. There was more to be feared from the shape of the SD cap than any potential shine from the badge. The BEF ordered on 7 June 1915 that the wire stiffener be removed because "the tightly drawn top of the service dress cap" reflected light.

Joe Sweeney

[DrB]

Strangely enough, two rifle regiments of the British army did not wear black badges, the old 95th, the Rifle Brigade and the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) wore white metal ones. The Irish Rifles wore both black and white metal versions of their badge.

Black badges were popular amoung the rifle "volunteers" of the pre-TA army and most of the units were dressed in green or gray. In the London Regiment, the 6th, 9th, 11th, 12th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th and 21st wore blackened badges. The 15th (Civil Service) Rifles and the 18th (London Irish) eschewed the cross patte variations of the other regiments, the 15th with the POW feathers and the 18th with an Irish harp.

As to the Aussies wearing black badges...the official issue was in copper or bronze and, in concert with other Pals here, considering the distain of the Aussies for "spit and polish" I would venture to guess that the badges were allowed to tarnish until they were dark in appearence. I am not aware of the Australian government ever issuing the rising sun in black, although I may very well be in error there. One can never say "never" when discussing WWI.

Hope this helps.

DrB

[bkristof]

And does anyone know why they hed black badges? Is it a very old tradition? or was there any reason? The same question for the titles and buttons...

[T8HANTS]

Hi Kristof

The old thing about black badges and buttons is a mid victorian idea the original Napoleonic era Rifles had silver badges and buttons, but adopted the "rifles clean, soldier dirty" ethos for practicality. Certain regiments would rather be seen dead than have dirty brasses. Remember our Irish Gaurds chum from the Mons march with dull brass, no way for a Guards Battalion, forget what regulations say, battalion standing orders take precedent. It is that sort of thing that make them different from the line, like wise the Rifle/Light infantry nothing shiny except the rifle mechanism and bore. It is part of the discipline of the British army that a soldier could be out of the line and expected to parade with very shiney brass and a spotless uniform within a couple of hours, if you can do that beating a few thousand Germans is a trifle. Also remember on a trench raid all cap-badges and shoulder titles were removed. A dirty soldier, is an idle soldier (worse crime in the army, murder is much lees), is an ill disiplined soldier.

[BatterySergeantMajor]

To my opinion the need for darkened badges only occured since the Great War, because trench warfare on such a large scale and for such a long period had never happened before. Up to then camouflage probably wasn't that important (hence the red trousers from the French Army).So it must have been a culture shock for the regiments to admit that it was wiser to cover their badges.

Erwin

[Joe Sweeney]

Certain regiments would rather be seen dead than have dirty brasses. Remember our Irish Gaurds chum from the Mons march with dull brass, no way for a Guards Battalion, forget what regulations say, battalion standing orders take precedent.

Out of curiosity what battalion Standing orders?

I have the 1911 Irish Guards Standing Orders and all amendments through 1914 and they are pretty silent on this subject. These standing orders are some of the more comprehensive I've come across. They tend to reinforce regulation and provide detail specific to the Irish Guards, which basically means that if not discussed then normal regulation would be defaulted too.

Have you come across an actual reference or have you assumed because they are Guards they should polish brass on active service?

Joe Sweeney

[T8HANTS]

Hi Joe

No I don't have anything spacific to the Irish Guards, so you are correct that I committed the deadly sin of assuming (Makes an ASS out of U and ME). Trying to explain why the British Army would be polished to Kristof and the concept "Idle" is quite difficult if you are a bear of little brain like me. Perhaps you know if the Irish Guards would have dulled down by the time they were on the retreat...Gareth

[Joe Sweeney]

Gareth,

The question of just how dull the brass would be by the time of the retreat from Mons would probably be simple to answer. I would assume not much. Probably as dull as simple handling would make.

The question of the reenactor whose brass was so noticably tarnished might indicate brass that was never shined, at least by the reenactor.

Joe Sweeney