Monchy-Le-Preux visit

[Shannock Bob]

Hi there,

 

I have just booked up to visit Monchy on 10th and 11th April to pay respects to my Great Grandfather who was killed in battle on the 11th April 1917. I have posted some information previously under a separate post:

I have obtained the Battalion war diaries and have a map showing where my Great Grandfather would have been fighting on the day he died. I would appreciate any help whatsoever in any points of interest in Monchy where I would be able to walk the area where he would have seen action so I can lay a poppy on a cross.

 

The Map I have is not easily transferable to the modern day Monchy, so again if anyone can help here that would aid me no end.

 

Many Thanks

 

Rob

[steve fuller]

Hi Rob

 

I've looked at the 6th Bedfordshires during Arras (same Division) and the road layouts of the area are still recognisable in the areas I've looked at, other than where the auto-route has since been built of course. Can you post the map and I would imagine we can work it out between us all?

[jonbem]

hi

have you tried this?

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=11&lat=50.8300&lon=2.9814&layers=168&b=1

 

regards

Jon

[Shannock Bob]

Wow thank you for that Jonbem, that is very useful. Much appreciated ?

 

Hi Steve, I will try and post the map if I can dig it out and work out how to post.

 

regards,

 

Rob

[Shannock Bob]

[steve fuller]

Hi Rob

 

Attached Google Earth with my best approximation of the lines on your map (using god old fashioned rulers and eyes I'm afraid, no technology!).

 

The copse in front of their jumping off line is still visible on the image as a good landmark for when you're on the spot - looks like the northern edge of the line on your map is 200 yards due west of the edge of the copse?

 

The second line appears to be midway between the houses and the wood on the NE edge of the village, so should also be easily seen in theory?

 

I imagine you already know but he would have presumably witness the famous cavalry charge, maybe even have been close enough to feel the ground rumble?

[Ron Clifton]

I think that there is a specific memorial to 37th Division in the village, showing three soldiers standing with their backs to each other on top of a fairly substantial stone base. I'm not sure exactly where it is, but when I was there some years ago we had no trouble stopping there. I think it is mentioned, with a picture, in Rose Coombes' book Before Endeavours Fade (published by After the Battle) but I can't lay my hands on my copy at the moment.

 

Ron

[Phil Wood]

[Shannock Bob]

Hi Ron and Phil, thank you for this. I had heard about this and will be sure find it when I go.

 

Thank you again Steve, I was looking at it last night and came up with the same sort of assumptions. I have just come to the realisation that when we made a very quick stop at Monchy on our way home last year that we visited the cemetery on the Chemin d'Arras which would have been almost the exact spot he possible saw action!

 

I am now going to attempt to travel down to London to the National Archives to see if I can find any further records. I am aware lots were lost or destroyed so aside from the Battalion War Diaries there is not an awful lot to go on.

 

I was given the book Cheerful Sacrifice for Christmas so am now going to make my way through this in order to learn more about the offensive in itself.

 

 

 

[steve fuller]

31 minutes ago, Shannock Bob said:

Thank you again Steve, I was looking at it last night and came up with the same sort of assumptions. I have just come to the realisation that when we made a very quick stop at Monchy on our way home last year that we visited the cemetery on the Chemin d'Arras which would have been almost the exact spot he possible saw action!

 

I am now going to attempt to travel down to London to the National Archives to see if I can find any further records. I am aware lots were lost or destroyed so aside from the Battalion War Diaries there is not an awful lot to go on.

Surprising how often things like that happen!

 

Brigade and Divisional War Diaries are often as valuable as the Battalion ones and may include little gems like maps, Messages and Signals, reports relating to the Bn which are not built into the Bn diaries, etc.; take a laptop and you can download them free while at TNA over the Wireless network. 

 

With luck it'll snow too while you're there, then you'll really get a feel for how it looked / felt to them!

[mandy hall]

You might find The Battleground Europe book on Monchy Le Preux useful.  It has a couple of walks around the area in it.  

If you go to Monchy British Cemetery, please say hello to the boys from The Royal Sussex Regiment especially Thomas William Budd from Chichester?

 

Not sure which way you are coming to Monchy but you may find your great grandad is recorded on this new French Memorial

http://www.northernfrance-tourism.com/Art-Culture/Remembrance/The-Ring-of-Remembrance-monument-for-peace-in-Lorette

 

Have a great trip.

 

Mandy

 

[Shannock Bob]

On 17/02/2017 at 14:06, steve fuller said:

Surprising how often things like that happen!

 

Brigade and Divisional War Diaries are often as valuable as the Battalion ones and may include little gems like maps, Messages and Signals, reports relating to the Bn which are not built into the Bn diaries, etc.; take a laptop and you can download them free while at TNA over the Wireless network. 

 

With luck it'll snow too while you're there, then you'll really get a feel for how it looked / felt to them!

Thanks for that tip and yes the snow would indeed. I am only there for a day though so while it would give the feel I think it could hamper me somewhat!!

 

It was due to the atrocious conditions I believe that they couldn't retrieve the fatalities, including my Great Grandfather so unfortunately he was never found.

 

Hi Mandy, yes I have ordered that one, by Colin Fox and it should be here tomorrow, and yes I will certainly say hi

 

regards

 

Rob

 

 

[Shannock Bob]

One question I have from what I have gleaned from the maps is the point the 13th RF and my Great Grandad would have started from on the 11th. Point A on the map above seems to be quite close to the village or would they have started further afield, closer to the River Scarp?

 

Not sure if anyone has advise on this or even if this is the correct forum for it. 

 

[steve fuller]

11 hours ago, Shannock Bob said:

One question I have from what I have gleaned from the maps is the point the 13th RF and my Great Grandad would have started from on the 11th. Point A on the map above seems to be quite close to the village or would they have started further afield, closer to the River Scarp?

Where did the info come from that led you to mark the point on the map that you did Rob? If its the diary, can you quote it verbatim please?

[Shannock Bob]

3 hours ago, steve fuller said:

Where did the info come from that led you to mark the point on the map that you did Rob? If its the diary, can you quote it verbatim please?

 

Hi Steve,

I didn't mark the map myself. That is a page from the Battalion War Diaries that I downloaded.

 

Last night I read an excerpt from 'The Fusiliers in the Great War' which has given a little more information....

 

Meanwhile the 37th Division had moved up. The 13th Battalion reached Blangy at ir.30 a.m. without casualties, and at 1.10 p.m. orders came to move forward and take up positions in Battery Valley, along the line of Fred's Wood, which lies about 200 yards north of the railway, and east of Blangy. At about 6.45 p.m. the battalion moved to the point from which they were to begin the attack on Monchy le Preux, a village standing on a small hill about 90 feet above the surrounding country. Up to the " Blue Line," which had been taken and consolidated early in the day, there was no shell fire ; but on crossing it the Fusiliers soon saw that the next line had not been taken in their immediate front and there was no alternative but to attack it preparatory to the final advance. With the 10th Royal Fusiliers on the right, the troops advanced steadily for about 2,000 yards and were at length brought to a halt just east of the Feuchy-Feuchy Chapel road. Their left was in the air, and the 13th Battalion had to form a defensive flank there. In this position they dug in at nightfall. Shortly before dawn they were withdrawn to near Broken Mill and another brigade took over the positions. The 10th Battalion had fallen back to Feuchy Chapel at 4 a.m., and then later to the "Brown Line," farther back.

 

About noon on April 10th the Royal Fusiliers moved forward once more. The 13th Battalion crossed the

northern end of Orange Hill and then swung half-left towards the outlying woods west of Monchy. The ioth

Battalion on the right were in touch, and both units continued to advance under a heavy barrage until the ioth were only 600 yards west of Monchy. The losses of both battalions had been very heavy. At 7.40 p.m. only three officers besides the CO. and the adjutant remained with the 13th Battalion, and a provisional line of trenches had to be dug west of the village, after consultation with the Royal Engineers. This line was completed by about 4 a.m. on April nth. About an hour and a half later the 10th and 13th Battalions made a last spurt forward and the 13th established themselves north of the village, about a hundred yards west of Hamers Lane ; and this position they held throughout the day. The 10th Battalion, now commanded by Major A. Smith, stormed the village itself and occupied it under a heavy barrage. The west side was entrenched and a small advanced post was established on the east of the village. The cavalry entered the village about n a.m. and were heavily shelled.

 

The Royal Fusiliers held these positions until relieved at 11 p.m. that night. It was a memorable day. At one time there was a blinding snowstorm but the troops ignored such small inconveniences, and, though the Arras front changed considerably in the subsequent operations, the positions at this point were little changed. In December the line was not 1,000 yards farther east than that achieved on April nth by the Fusiliers. When Lieut. General Sir R. C. B. Haking, G.O.C. XI. Corps, inspected the 10th Battalion on January 5th, he said it was the best turned-out unit he had seen for twelve months. Their achievement at Monchy le Preux must place them in the front rank for courage, tenacity and skill. Their losses were twelve officers (including Lieut.-Colonel Rice, wounded) and 240 other ranks. The 13th Battalion had also suffered very heavily, and Colonel Layton's words, in reporting the detail of the action, " I consider that the battalion behaved magnificently, and I have nothing but praise for every one in it," were well merited.

 

I will get the maps out again tonight and try and plot this information to try and help build a better picture  

 

 

[steve fuller]

2 hours ago, Shannock Bob said:

I didn't mark the map myself. That is a page from the Battalion War Diaries that I downloaded.

In which case, you would imagine it to be accurate I'd imagine, which seems to be confirmed by the entry above - given that one square on the map is 500 yards, the reference to the 10th Bn being 600 yards west of Monchy puts the starting line for 11th April about right I'd say?

[Shannock Bob]

Well am now about to hit the hay here in Arras. Have had a great afternoon exploring and will head back to Monchy tomorrow morning. The weather couldn't be more different to what it was 100 years ago.

[steve fuller]

Nice  say hello to the boys for us who cannot be there?

[Fattyowls]

Rob, it's great to see a plan come together; I hope your visit is every bit as fulfilling as it sounds. I am suddenly itching to go back.

 

Pete.

[Shannock Bob]

Thanks chaps, was a great visit. just wish I had longer to explore. It has certainly left me wanting more but i managed to leave my small tribute which was a nice varnished remembrance cross and a small framed photograph which was a copy of one which he would have had with him in battle. It was of him and his wife and eight children, taken when he was on leave in Sheringham. I placed it just outside Orange Trench Cemetery where there is a tree in the corner out of the way of the field but i have left it by there over looking the battlefield. It is enough out of the way that i hope it remains undisturbed.

[Shannock Bob]

 

[Shannock Bob]

Wish I had not have discovered this today! Hopefully I will through the kind folk on this website be able to learn what has happened to my photograph possibly so soon after me leaving it there.

 

regards,

 

Rob

[chaz]

Hi Rob

being a relative newbie at visiting France, we spend more time at cemeteries than looking at battlefields, we have seen a few items that have been left in various places.

there is thought from some people , as in UK churchyards and cemeteries, that alot of items left are removed by the gardeners after a while as they fade, decay or blow away and become litter.

we have seen RBL wreaths in two or three pieces , photos that are just sheets of paper.

one thing I do find anoying is people leaving tributes in the cemetery registers. we look through them but there are small labels, big A4 sheets some laminated , some thin tissue. all we wnt to do is check through for correct entries.

but then thats just my opinion.

regarding your photograph, it may have been moved by a gardener as , in the way, or thought that it had blown there from somewhere els and did not want it blowing further....

[Shannock Bob]

Yes that is understandable Chaz although this was not within the cemetery boundaries and was placed under a tree in a sturdy frame in a sheltered spot. Who knows but I placed it there as it was unobtrusive and not in anyones way. Its a shame but I guess it does happen that things get moved/disturbed. I just didn't think it would happen so soon.