Worst WW1 books?

[Alan_J]

A book should never be avoided on the say-so of another person. (Neither should any be taken as 100% accurate either!!! )

Dave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the various opinions on several of the books listed in this thread prove exactly that. Some people love 'em, some people hate 'em - it's a bit like tastes in music!

I also read whatever I can, and there's only a few I have really felt I did not get much from, and even then I don't neccessarily regret reading them.

Only trouble is, it's an expensive and space-hungry addiction (have just converted the loft and will be moving my collection up there shortly to the relief of the rerst of the family!).

Alan

[ATM]

Here is my bit.

1.) Forgotten Victory - Gary Sheffield - Words cannot praise it enough.

2.) Tommy - Richard Holmes - Just brilliant, carefully written, never offensive to whichever view point you may coem from.

3.) 1914 - Lyn Macdonald - This is one of the more "mainstream" books that i really do appreciate. For me this just captured the flavour of it all so well.

4.) Gallipoli - L.A. Carlyon - I was expecting to cringe at more Australian racism, surprised at a much more even look at the campaign, giving reason to stopfords actions and not making him the complete scapegoat.

Books I haven't been too impressed with are:

1.) Somme - Lyn Macdonald - Very patchy I thought, compared to her other works, particularly 1914, I found it well below standard.

2.) Butchers and Bunglers - Laffin - Need I say more?

3.) Birdsong - Sebastien Faulks - That guy never got any in his entire life, plus the ususal trenches routine.

Criticising Somme does not mean that I hate it at all, just found it an utter let down.

A book that desperatley needs to be written is a comprehensive study of teh Mesopotamia campaign. Alas I can only find Michael Carvers Turkish Front book which although decent cannot begin at all to cover the campaign in sufficient detail.

[CROONAERT]

A book that desperatley needs to be written is a comprehensive study of teh Mesopotamia campaign. Alas I can only find Michael Carvers Turkish Front book which although decent cannot begin at all to cover the campaign in sufficient detail.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How about the 4 volumes covering the Mesopotamia Campaign in the British "Official History of the War" series which is (I think) available in reprint from the N&MP? This should have the detail you require.

Dave.

[Bob Mitchell]

I believe some of the overall general histories deal with Mesopotamia. I know David Stevenson's 1914-1918 does, and I'm sure if I can remember correctly that Trevor Wilson's Myriad Faces of War has a good bash at it. Both may not help for specialised reading though, but they'll give a good introduction to the chronology

[Guest Paul Leane]

him the complete scapegoat.

Books I haven't been too impressed with are:

12.) Butchers and Bunglers - Laffin - Need I say more?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

More? No

But something intelligent might help.

[Duncan]

A controversial one here but one of Vera Brittain’s books nearly made me sick!

I read it thinking it was suppose to be a classic. There’s a bit in it half way through where they come across two graves, one to a senior officer and one to a Private. She speculates on the coincidence that one grave contains someone so worthwhile and valuable to society (the officer), and the other grave someone so worthless (the Private).

I stopped reading at that point. Upper class crap!

[Steve Bramley]

Upper class crap!

Williams, Shirley Vivien Teresa Brittain, Baroness Williams of Crosby 1930–, British politician. Daughter of the political scientist and philosopher Sir George Catlin and the novelist Vera Brittain, she entered Parliament in 1964 as a member of the Labour party. She served (1976–79) as education minister in the Labour government, but in 1981 she left the party and became a founder and president (1982–88) of the Social Democratic party (SDP). In Nov., 1981, she was the first SDP member to win election to Parliament; she lost her seat in 1983. Williams, who was created a life peer in 1993, was married to the philosopher Sir Bernard Williams from 1955 to 1974.

Her daughter must have rebelled!

Regards,

Steve

[Guest IMDB Fan]

Hey guys at the risk of sounding patronising or at least merely sycophantic may I just say what a pleasure it is to meet you all and that I feel slightly out of my depth at seeing a forum where people REALLY know what they`re talking about

I felt like contributing to this thread by stating that the worst book on the First World war would surely be Dr John Laffin`s BRITISH BUTCHERS AND BUNGLERS OF WORLD WAR ONE , a book that is written with a somewhat geo nationalist republican Anglophobe agenda . Laffin fails to point out that compared with several other countries the British war dead was not as bad as say Germany , France or Russia and makes the dubious point that if John Monash was allied commander on the Western Front the war would have resulted in a swift Allied victory . Speculation on the point of the author but no one will ever know if it`s true or not . I could make the same point that if Edmund Allenby replaced Haigh the war could have finished sooner with a quick victory for the allies . Again this is only speculation and is in no way something that can be taken as historical fact

Thanks to the guys who mentioned THE MYTH OF THE GREAT WAR by John Mosier since I`d never heard of it and looked it up on Amazon . OMG reading a book on WW1 by Mosier is like reading a book on the holocaust written by David Irving . It seems the allies never won a single victory until the Americans arrived and after that the Germans never won a battle . Oh and the British people were kept in the dark about casualties , that`s strange because I do know The Times published the names of every single British serviceman killed during the period . Oh and Victory was all down to Uncle Sam ! here`s me thinking BAND OF BROTHERS and OPERATION BURMA were biased . I guess I`ll hunt this book down ( Though I won`t be paying money for it ) since it appears to be the only book about the First World War that causes the reader to wet themself with laughter

Has anyone read Alan Clark`s THE DONKEYS ? I`m led to believe it propogates the offensive myths that all British generals had a cushy time when in fact more generals in the British army were killed wounded and taken prisoner than in 1939-45 . Actually this is what attracted me to this very site where Chris goes to the trouble of naming senoir British officers killed in battles

[Guest wrighty]

VERDUN - IAN OUSBY

disappointing and boring to me.

Spent a lot of time on the politics, and not enough on the ordinary soldier, and like most books by academics, just boring.

[Guest]

VERDUN - IAN OUSBY

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am reluctant to say this was the worst, but I agree that it was deeply disappointing. If I had come to it not having read anything else about Verdun, I think it would have left me pretty confused. Thank goodness for Alistair Horne.

Also, I had read and been fairly impressed by his previous book about the occupation of France in WWII, which made it doubly disappointing.

It must be said that although he started to write history rather late in his life, the late Ian Ousby was no historian. His career was in literature and I think this came through in The Road to Verdun, to the considerable detriment of the history.

[AthollHighlander]

Hi There,

Yes I totally agree with you. I know this is going off topic a little but think it adds to the thread, as to what we read and how we view it.

So often in books there seems to be a need to knock people/a person to improve the image of another. This then is adopted by a whole host of people as the truth.

This also happens in film. Although in my view a good action film BRAVE HEART, it was a total DISGRACE to history. Being English I found it worrying particularly when the Scottish Rugby Team held the video aloft and said it was because of this they were going to destroy the ENGLISH !! Historically unless Wallace was questionable about who he slept with, as Edward II future wife was about 9 at the time or if we agree that she wasn't, and as she mocked Edward I on his death bed that she was expecting Wallace's son, that it was a miracle as Wallace died a couple of years before Edward I. Where does that leave us in Historical terms ?

In my view just anti-English !

So going back to WW1 in many or maybe most peoples opinion, NOT THE VIEWS ON HERE, I BELIEVE but in the general view of people The Australians, The Scots, The Welsh, The Kiwis,The Ulstermen, The Irish, The South Africans and many others were the ones that won the war and The English just made up the numbers.

And me for one, I am heartily sick of it.

I think the contribution of all the above helped us win the war and without them we couldn't have done it, but without The ENGLISH REGIMENTS, we couldn't have even fought the war, let alone win it !!!

So going back to the thread unless we have a balanced view no one is worth reading, and certainly not LAFFIN !!!

Cheers

Tim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim

In reply to the Braveheart film there is no doubting the inaccuracies that exist within the film in a factual historical context., some but not all so don't generalise please.. it wasn't a total disgrace as in everything was innaccurate!! as your post alludes to..

I think what the film did, and indeed what all the books discussed succeed in doing, whether in your or my opinion good or bad, is stimulate interest in the given subject. So if Birdsong sparks an interest in newcomers to the subject and they read further about areas such as the Mining efforts in the Great War, or the first day of the Somme then that can only be a good thing.

To assume that the vast majority of readers cling onto every scene as fact is to do the General public a disservice, undoubtedly less well versed than the participators on this forum but neverthless intelligent enough in the main to formulate their own research if they wish to do so and make a judgement just as you or I can.

Looking back at Braveheart what it did do was stimulate an interest in the History of the Scottish Nation that had not been taught for years in Scottish Schools with British History first and foremost in the curriculum. It no more sparked jingoism in Scotland than the "rebellious Scots to crush" verse does in the British National anthem! If you state it was a disgrace to History then you must obviously hold the stance that the English carried out none of the atrocities carried out in the film, if you had read factual accounts of this period you will of course know what is or is not true in a Historical context.

Ironically it was in the year following the release of the film that saw the reemergence of the St George flag south of the border for a sporting event, and the spark of new found nationalism that it exuded.. it can only be a good thing .. can't it?

Atholl

[Guest IMDB Fan]

Oh dear this is opening a whole can of worms

Without getting into the specifics of a Hollywood movie - For the record I`m Scottish and have no idea why they play sound clips of BRAVEHEART at the kick off at Scotland games - but Tim has a very good point involving fictional historical events becoming facts because they appeared in a movie or novel . Take that piece of Hollywood nonsense called MICHAEL COLLINS . Occasionally you read on websites that the man behind Collins killing was Eamon De Valera ! This is because someone saw a fictionalised movie where De Valera ordered the killing when in fact no one knows who was responsible , but all the facts add up to De Valera having nothing to do with it while there`s a train of speculation that it was the men who were travelling with Collins that day could have been behind it rather than anti-treaty IRA men , again that`s only speculation . I`m really dreading the future where people read Pat Barker novels thinking they`re the definitive social history of 1914-18

Maybe we could move this topic onto " What`s The Worst Movie Featuring The First World War ? "

For me it`s got to be THE TRENCH , a hopelessly anachronistic movie where cyincal ( 1 ) young men from all over Britain ( 2 ) sit and swear (3 ) and feel fear at going over the top ( 4) on the 1st of July 1916

1 ) I wasn`t aware cynicism existed in those days . This feels more like Vietnam in 1970 than Europe 1916

2 ) How come these Infantrymen have a widerange of British accents ? No one heard of local regiments or pal battalions ?

3 ) They F and C in every single line . How often have you heard someone born in 1900 use bad language ?

4 ) From what I`ve read about the shelling even the hardest British veteran felt sorry for what the Jerries were going through

[squirrel]

This discussion would of necessity be brief if it were confined to films and novels that got it absolutely right; I am sure that there are some somewhere.

[Guest]

This discussion would of necessity be brief if it were confined to films and novels that got it absolutely right; I am sure that there are some somewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When you find one, please tell us.

What gets me is when people read or see a work of fiction and believe it. You only suspend your disbelief at the time, you don't throw it away for ever. At least, you shouldn't!

[squirrel]

Even people who were there at the time or knew people who were get it wrong.

Lady Butler's paintings are a case in point and there is one account of an action during the battle of Waterloo in one of the Bronte's novels where the uniform details are described wrongly.

I reckon the film The Lighthorsemen got it about right though but I am sure somebody will find something wrong with it.

[Ciaran Byrne]

3 ) They F and C in every single line . How often have you heard someone born in 1900 use bad language ?

My uncle is 80 years old, born and bred in Dublin remembers his uncle who was in the Dublin Fusiliers tell him a story that when they were retruning to barracks (just prior to 1914) after a night on the beer it would be great sport for all those returning to reply to the sentry on guard when challenged to tell him to "F*** off you f***ing louser and mind your own business" and promptly fall about laughing. My mother who also knew him really well was adamant that he never used any stronger language than "bloody" and that was only when he was really annoyed. I think men were more selective who they swore in front of.

Another time when my uncle was working at a paint factory in Dublin in the 1930s many of the men had served during World War One. He was an apprentice working with a man who had served during the war and was taken prisoner. He was bald and one day told my uncle that he had been taken prisoner by the Germans and had told one German soldier to "You f***ing lousey German C***" to which he was hit over the head with a rifle butt. He was adamant that this was the reason he was bald! He also used to taunt my uncle and describe to him the women he was supposedly bedding at the time in graphic detail.

Believe me, men swore back then just as they swear now. Perhaps not on such a grand scale but it still went on.

[Guest IMDB Fan]

Thanks for the reply Ciaran

I don`t doubt that bad language was used in those days but I have a serious problem it was used anywhere on the scale as seen in THE TRENCH which I thought was a terrible movie which everyone else at www.imdb.com also seems to hate . Check out the reviews of it ( my name`s Theo BTW ) to see how many other errors people managed to spot

[truthergw]

Thanks for the reply Ciaran

I don`t doubt that bad language was used in those days but I have a serious problem it was used anywhere on the scale as seen in THE TRENCH which I thought was a terrible movie which everyone else at www.imdb.com also seems to hate . Check out the reviews of it ( my name`s Theo BTW ) to see how many other errors people managed to spot

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Anyone who doubts that soldiers of yesteryear were fluent and imaginative swearers should reflect on where the phrase " swear like a trooper " comes from.

[Guest IMDB Fan]

I think I might start a thread asking this question !

[Jim Clay]

I think I might start a thread asking this question !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Theo

I think it might be an interesting and illuminating topic - and might give me an opportunity to tell Tommy's tale (Tommy, born about 1908, so too young for WW1, too old-ish for WW2, but served in mid-East and India between the wars).

Regards

Jim

[Michelle Young]

A controversial one here but one of Vera Brittain’s books nearly made me sick!

I read it thinking it was suppose to be a classic.  There’s a bit in it half way through where they come across two graves, one to a senior officer and one to a Private.  She speculates on the coincidence that one grave contains someone so worthwhile and valuable to society (the officer), and the other grave someone so worthless (the Private).

I stopped reading at that point.  Upper class crap!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Duncan The upper class crap was actually written by Roland Leighton, who was to become Vera Brittains Fiance. He wrote the letter to Vera on 22nd may 1915............." There is a grave a few yards away from where i am sitting- a private in the Somerset light Infantry killed in December: which makes the two poems in 'The Dead' more real than ever. there is also a Major of the 19th Hussars buried near here.............I cannot help thinking of the two together and of the greater value of the one. Waht a pity it is that the same little piece of lead takes away as easily a brilliant life and one that is merely vegetation. The democracy of war!"

Maybe worth remembering that this letter was written by an arrogant 19 year old, not long out of public school, and probably echoed the views of many intellectuals.

[tim_oz]

The worst book ever written about the Great War has to be 'The Poppy Factory' by Wiliam Fairchild.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had forgotten the name of this dog of a book but remember buying it in London for a flight to the US. I dont think we had got half way before I decided that the safety card in the seat pocket was a better read. I should have written to the publisher and demanded payment for wasting 2 hours of my life.

Tim

[healdav]

It has to be a book of travel tales along the front by Edith Whartone (you can find it on the internet). She goes to the front line in the Vosges and actually talks about their 'jolly little dugouts'.

I'm surprised there wasn't an accidental discharge if that's the way she talked to the men.

[uncle bill]

the somme book by marix evans.

[susanhemmings]

well, i have just started to read "Birdsong" and from the cover thought it would be about WW1 - i am several pages in and its all romance and heady passionate stuff. Not the sort of action I had expected.

I don't know whether to open it to read or leave it closed..-

Also just got "conscripts (forgotton men of the great war).by ilana R. Bet-el

Birdsong is already coming in for some critisism by the author. (to do with disillusionment, and idealism etc).

Eeeny meeny miny mo......