michaela Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 (edited) I am trying to identify these family members, but haven't a clue where to start. I have been trying to date the photo, and was advised that it could be during the war era. Because of the age of the boys, I am leading towards a boys brigade, but am unsure as to whether it would be attached to a regiment. Maybe a cadet force? The photo was taken by Brunton from Burnley. Any help would be appreciated. Many thanks Edited 9 February , 2017 by michaela To obtain more information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 The Boys Brigade badge matches and was a separate organisation with its own uniform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 Can you post a zoom in of the cap badges and the belt buckles please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 (edited) It does not seem clear cut to me. Boy's Brigade waist and cross belts were generally in brown leather were they not? Even in bands in the images I have seen. Also the boy sergeant on the left appears to be wearing the infantry regiments scarlet, worsted sash, which is an unusual trespass of a guarded privilege for the period. The badge is reminiscent of Coldstream Guards and I recall that there was an auxiliary forces unit that wore something similar, but cannot recollect who they were. Edited 7 February , 2017 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 Not an army tunic....only four buttons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, johnboy said: Not an army tunic....only four buttons? Yes, I agree, they wear non-standard 4-button frocks and so are well outside the army norm. The shoulder strap of the boy on the right should be readable/describable through even a basic magnifier and reveal a great deal. Edited 7 February , 2017 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rvictor Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 I think they are mabybe simply members of a local brass band ..... google images searching for that comes up with very similar ranges of uniform, sash and caps Rvictor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 If just a local brass band..why is one wearing puttees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rvictor Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 good point ... that blows that theory out of the water !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 Close up of shoulder title Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 (edited) 48 minutes ago, johnboy said: Close up of shoulder title It's a good try, but unfortunately too blurred to discern anything. I really meant the owner of the photo looking through a simple glass. The naked eye will be able to read the titles if it is a glass plate image with the clear resolution that is a feature of that type of print. Edited 7 February , 2017 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 (edited) Like Frogsmile, I also have reservations on this being BB. This is why I've asked for close-ups of the cap badge and belt buckle. I'm used to seeing BB in pillbox caps and generally not with white equipment. None of my BB material shows field service cap style headgear. However, my main area of interest is not BB, but CLB because of the KRRC connection. I would never claim to have great expertise on the BB. 99% sure they are not CLB anyway. Mark Edited 7 February , 2017 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 Can we also have close ups of shoulder title, collar dogs and crossbelt badge too please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, MBrockway said: Like Frogsmile, I also have reservations on this being BB. This is why I've asked for close-ups of the cap badge and belt buckle. I'm used to seeing BB in pillbox caps and generally not with white equipment. None of my BB material shows field service cap style headgear. However, my main area of interest is not BB, but CLB because of the KRRC connection. I would never claim to have great expertise on the BB. 99% sure they are not CLB anyway. Mark I did wonder about CLB Mark and looked at some of their insignia online. I recall some lads in a photo posted in GWF I think last year, or the year before and the uniform seemed to comprise a 5-button rifle green frock of traditional army type with simple, single loop cuff decoration. The right hand lad in the subject photo has quite poorly tied Puttees, which chimes with a part-time youth organisation of some kind. Edited 7 February , 2017 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 Are the marks lower left sleeve a design or just creases? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 (edited) 35 minutes ago, johnboy said: Are the marks lower left sleeve a design or just creases? It is a typical trefoil knot, in Russia braid, or cord, as cuff decoration. Edited 7 February , 2017 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 Thanks. Is that any help in id ing or dating? Found a pic of !RF taken in 1908. Similar eppaulettes , white cross belt and white belt. Differnt tunic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 8 February , 2017 Share Posted 8 February , 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, johnboy said: Thanks. Is that any help in id ing or dating? Found a pic of !RF taken in 1908. Similar eppaulettes , white cross belt and white belt. Differnt tunic. You are right that the trefoil knot is typical of a pre-war band uniform and much of their uniform, caps, puttees, shoulder wings and sergeant's sash are typical army issue. It is the 4-button frock that is so unusual. The two instruments are synonymous with a 'bugle band' of the kind maintained by cadet corps and schools and I strongly suspect that they are junior OTC (post war CCF). The white cross belt traditionally secured a music case hanging diagonally in the centre of the back. As well as those sponsored by schools and colleges there were independent cadet battalions at that time, many but not all of the latter affiliated with the Territorial Force. Edited 8 February , 2017 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 8 February , 2017 Share Posted 8 February , 2017 (edited) On the original photo do I detect ball buttons (as in RHA) on the right-hand figure, or is it my specs? I was thinking about a school OTC, and someone might know about which schools in or near Burnley might have had one. D Edit to add: The Burnley Express and Clitheroe Division Advertiser, 10 Nov 1900 reported the formation of a cadet corps at Stoneyhurst College, which was attached to 1st Volunteer Battalion, East Lancashire Regiment. Edited 8 February , 2017 by daggers extra info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 8 February , 2017 Share Posted 8 February , 2017 I had already spent an hour yesterday evening exploring the cadet angle Frogsmile and daggers have now suggested. Stonyhurst College is the only well-known public school in the Burnley area that I could find, and it certainly has a very fine military tradition, but their OTC cap badge is definitely not the one we see in this photo. I also looked at the cap badges of the regiments recruiting (reasonably) locally to Burnley - with the subjects in the photo being either members or belonging to an affiliated cadet unit - and none of these seemed strong matches either. viz. East Lancs Regt, Loyal North Lancs, Lancs Fusiliers, King's Own (Royal Lancs), South Lancs, York & Lancaster Regt., West Riding (DoW) Regt., West Yorks, Manchester Regt, Border Regt. The Border Regt is the only one that has a star shape but to me it doesn't seem to match our photo here. Most of these regiments include battalions with roots in the rifle volunteers and it's possible those battalions had cap badges different from the parent regiment. That would be covered in K&K and easily checked, but I'm away from home just now. The other line to explore is national regiments and corps. The Coldstream Guards are certainly a possibility, though the badge looks too "fat" to my eyes. My current favourite is the ASC. Frogsmile's key point about the tunics being atypical for a genuine military unit must be borne in mind though. Whatever, I won't be putting more time into this until we get some better close-ups to work with. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 8 February , 2017 Share Posted 8 February , 2017 Stonyhurst College OTC cap badge currently on fleaBay. I make no claims this is genuine, nor that it's contemporary with our photo. It is clearly not the badge being worn by our two bandsmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 8 February , 2017 Share Posted 8 February , 2017 Going back to the original photo. It is clearly a studio pic. Could the instruments be props? Of the many band photos I have seen nearly all are taken outside. Are the shoulder wings detachable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaela Posted 8 February , 2017 Author Share Posted 8 February , 2017 Thanks everyone for their time on this. I'm struggling to get a more detailed close up of the badges. Could there be a possibility that it's the Catholic Boys Brigade? And if so, what time frame? I've googled the cap badge and it looks similar, star shaped. I have another photo, different uniform, but the badge looks the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 8 February , 2017 Share Posted 8 February , 2017 The caps are different. No shoulder wings . I think the tunics might be five buttoned. Strange there are only 2 chaps in original pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 8 February , 2017 Share Posted 8 February , 2017 (edited) Well done Michaela, I am 100% convinced personally that you have it. I think that the frocks are the same rather unique 4-button type with large gaps and the rather narrow white waist belts and cross belts too. Added to which although the caps are different the badges are the exact same shape. Notice that one of the more senior boys at the back of your group has the same, peaked forage cap with a badge remarkably the same. Once again a typical bugle and drums band and I think that the Puttees and wings in the subject photo just reflect wartime and not all bands would have been equipped identically I suspect. It is very interesting, I have not come across the Catholic Boy's Brigade before. Edited 8 February , 2017 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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