PAB Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 I have a Ross Rifle bayonet and scabbard that came originally from my paternal grandfather. He re-joined the Royal Navy in 1915 hostilities only and it is alleged that this came from this time. Would the navy have had the Ross rifle? He served at sea 'grey navy' not part of the Navy Divisions 'khaki navy' I have heard that the Ross was used by Home Guard - my Grandfather was too old even for these as he had originally joined the Navy in 1892. Is this an oddity / rarity and does it have any value (It will NOT be for sale - ever) The marks on the pommel as follows: Side with push button: Arrow or crows foot in a C, crown beneath. Number 11 with 12/16 beneath. Flat side of pommel: ROSS RIFLE CO QUEBEC PATENTED 1907 Regards, P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 I always recall my Dad stating that he had been issued A Ross Rifle & Bayonet During WW2 whilst serving with the RAF{They had arrived from Canada Greased & Crated from Circa 1908!;& He being loathe to part with it in 1946!},It was he always endorsed a Great Rifle,Very Accurate & Beautifully Engineered & Ideal for The use to which the RAF @ Home Gave it{ie Guard Duty!}It was not ;due to its Complex engineering; & Extra weight; however suited for Trench Warfare,I believe that the Royal Navy Proper used it Aboard Ship as a Small arm, & the RND did use it,,initially;It had an Odd size Round{.300"?} as opposed to the more readily available .303" Round,It had its uses in the Home Guard WW2 also Something of a rarity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAB Posted 13 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Many thanks, this helps things fall together. My Grandfather really could have had the bayonet during his war sevice. Regards, P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientguide Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 the Ross rifle debacle is one of those interesting stories wherby politicians interfere and overrule the advice of the professionals. A belligerant Canadian politician sam hughes Minister for the Militia insisted before WW1 that the small canadian Army would use a Canadian Rifle rather than the British SMLE. General Alderson senior officer and eventual first commander of the Canadian Expeditionary Force wanted the SMLE. Hughes overruled him and the Canadians went to war with the Ross. Whilst an excellent target rifle the muddy active service conditions proved too much for it, many Canadians eventually lost theirs acquiring Lee Enfields until it was eventually officially withdrawn late 1915 and replaced with the SMLE. Hughes never forgave Alderson for opposing him and engineered his removal in 1915 after the Battles of the craters St Eloi. The Ross rifles were returned to store and were shipped back again for the Home Gaurd in 1940 so great was the shortage of rifles at that time. SG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lassuy Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 During the Great War, the Royal Navy aquired the M-10, Mk III Ross rifle (your bayonet is for one of these, not the earlier Mk II) after their replacement by the Lee Enfield in the CEF. The Ross replaced the Japanese Type 30 & 38 Arisakas (!) that the RN had been using, as the Ross used the standard .303 round, as opposed to the 6.5mm of the Arisaka. At the outset of the war, the RN turned over its Enfields to the BEF, to forestall any shortage, and then purchased the surplus Arisakas from Britain's ally, Japan----Japan also supplied Russia with the same rifle, by the way. As soon as the Ross became available, they were snapped up by the RN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDick Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 As well as the Ross, the RN also used Winchester rifles (a la Wild West), at least aboard submarines. An account states that the Winchesters were replaced by the Ross - apparently very good for shooting at mines - and finally by Lee Enfields. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAB Posted 13 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Many thanks, this is all good stuff. keep it coming I am learning a lot here. Regards, P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tam Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 My father was in the Home Guard during WW2 and was issed with a Ross rifle. He also got 5 rounds of ammo. After 6 months of carefully cleaning the rifle and ammo a Regular Army Sergent Maor pointed out that the ammo was .30 while the gun was .303 and couldn`t be fired! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.S.Regt. Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Your Ross Bayonet going by the numbers you provided is for the 1910 Rifle. The only way to tell for sure is the muzzle ring the 1905 Bayonet is a smaller diameter and is stepped the 1910 model has a larger diameter muzzle ring and is flush with the rest of the crossgaurd. Regards N.S.Regt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAB Posted 15 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 15 December , 2004 Many thanks. I shall have a look at the muzzle ring. From memory, I am pretty sure that it is the 1910 pattern. Regards, P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 15 December , 2004 Share Posted 15 December , 2004 Here are a number of Ross related links, including bayonet pictures in the first two: http://arms2armor.com/Bayonets/ross1910.htm http://arms2armor.com/Bayonets/usross.htm http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2069/r10.html http://www.angelfire.com/nh/milarm/ross05.html http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/Military/...fle_scandal.htm http://home.twcny.rr.com/jeffandkathy/Ross...ame1Source1.htm http://www.bayo-hunter.com/collect.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted 15 December , 2004 Share Posted 15 December , 2004 I also have a Ross Rifle bayonet and scabbard, and have no idea of its origins. It has just always been in our home. Having celebrated my 58th birthday yesterday I can recall as a ten year old playing with it in the woods near my house. On one side it has the same inscription as mentioned Ross Rifle Co.Quebec etc., but on the other side are the initials J A F Would anyone have an idea as tro what they stood for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAB Posted 15 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 15 December , 2004 Many thanks - this is just the thing. Regards, P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gordon Posted 15 December , 2004 Share Posted 15 December , 2004 Another thing about the Ross (maybe raised in one of the sites quoted above) was that after dismantling and reassembling the bolt could be replaced in such a fashion that everything looked AOK but when a round was fired the bolt was projected into the users face - nasty. I was a 16 year old private in the Home Guard and had a Ross issued but nobody told us of this fact ! Regards Jim Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gordon Posted 15 December , 2004 Share Posted 15 December , 2004 An addendum to the above. The Ross was prone to jam especially when in rapid fire mode. The cartridge jammed in the firing chamber due to the dimensional changes caused by the heat. Regards Jim Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAB Posted 20 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2004 Many thanks. Regards, P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Juice Posted 30 December , 2004 Share Posted 30 December , 2004 A few facts about the choice of the Ross rifle by the Canadians in WW1: By the early XX century, the Canadian govt. was "competing" against the British Army to place orders for SMLE (especially during the Boers War). Attempts to have SMLE produced under licence in Canada failed. The Ross rifle Co. was established and it delivered a first order of 1000 rifles in 1905. Canadian marksmen had good success with it at Bisley, reinforcing the impression that it was a great rifle. As we know, it was a different story in the field... Sam Hugues became Minister of Militia in 1911. He was a strong supporter of "Canadian made", good or bad! Even if he was a strong supporter of the Ross, he had no choice but to live with it at the beginning of the war... Juice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lassuy Posted 3 January , 2005 Share Posted 3 January , 2005 The Ross is a very interesting rifle, and loads of fun to fire, I take mine out whenever I can. However, after firing it, some of it's deficiencies become apparent. It's long, very heavy for a battle rifle, and prone to jam under two different circumstances. The first, as mentioned by Jim Gordon, was a fired shell jamming in the chamber--this is due to the extremely "tight" chamber tolerances. This is also what made the Ross so accurate. The tight tolerances make for accuracy, but don't allow for any variation in ammunition, dirt, dented cases, etc.---all of which were found in the trenches. I've never experienced this type of jamming, perhaps because I use modern ammunition and am not wading about in a trench full of mud. The second type of jamming, however, I have had happen---because of the single-column magazine, the rims of the .303 shell catch on the one below and make for difficult feeding. This isn't a problem with my SMLE. Annoying at the range, I can imagine the reaction when if Jerry was coming over the top. The bit about the bolt blowing backwards is vastly overated--while the bolt can be assembled wrong and inserted into the action, it's a real struggle to do so. Anyone who could actually do this must have known something wasn't right, as the bolt is near impossible to put back in the receiver. As an aside, the Ross's reputation for accuracy was well founded. Before the war, Canada and the US competed fiercely in service rifle matches. The US actually changed the rules of the matches in the US to disallow use of the Ross, as the much-vaunted 1903 Springfield (a very accurate rifle in it's own right) was being thoroughly beaten by the Canadian rifle teams. Doesn't say much for my countrymen, I'm afraid. At any rate, the Ross was kept in service for sniping use throughout the war--which is where it excelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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