Uniform and Battalion Identification

[paul2018]

Hopefully someone can help me here.   I am studying my ancestry and have an old battered photograph of my great grandad in ww1.  All we know is that his name was William Robson and that he lived in Byker of Newcastle Upon Tyne.  All we were told by my gran was that he died on the front lines.  Her mother and William did not get married for some reason and ww1 wiped out any chance of it happening.

 

Not having any more information on him makes it almost impossible for me to find his family, but I am currently looking through old photos of the illustrated chronicle and as tedious as this is going page by page, I am hopeful I will find a match.

 

I have posted a copy of the picture that he gave to his lover...Its not in good condition but good enough for a hundred years.

 

Knowing something about the issue date of the uniform on this photo would be a big help, and I understand that the cap badge indicates his battalion, which would also be great help.

In fact ANY information you can glean from this picture would be very welcome indeed.

 

Many thanks.

 

 

 

Edited 31 January , 2017 by paul2018

[FROGSMILE]

He is with the Northumberland Fusiliers (NF) and wearing 1902 pattern khaki serge Service Dress (SD).  He is dressed for 'walking-out' (of barracks), a form of dress that the vast majority of WW1 soldiers adopted when posing for a portrait photo intended for loved ones (family and paramours etc).  A common marker of this is the so-called 'swagger stick' that he holds in his left hand.

The NF were originally the 5th regiment of foot (meaning infantry) and their famous badge always included a representation of St George and the Dragon.  As a regiment they routinely celebrated St George's day as their special, regimental day.  Another proud distinction is the wearing of a cut feather plume, bottom half white and top half scarlet, which commemorates their brave actions at the battle of Wilhelmstahl in the so-called '7-years war' (1762).

The regiment also had the reputation of forming more battalions (each around a thousand strong) in WW1 than any other regiment in the British Army, with an official total of 52 battalions.

The type of belt worn in the photo is from the 1908 pattern web equipment that tended to be issued to regular and Territorial (part-time, citizen) soldiers, and is less often seen on war-raised units.  The Puttees (leg wrappings) on his lower legs have been done in a stylised way that related to medical bandaging and the neat way in which that has been done suggests a man with some experience and not a completely new recruit.

Edited 31 January , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[paul2018]

Superb information my friend.  I may even have found a possible candidate from the information you have given.  I have found a possible candidate who was in the 4th battalion which matches with your mention of Territorial...I will post an update soon as I find out.

Many thanks indeed for your post.

Paul.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, paul2018 said:

Superb information my friend.  I may even have found a possible candidate from the information you have given.  I have found a possible candidate who was in the 4th battalion which matches with your mention of Territorial...I will post an update soon as I find out.

Many thanks indeed for your post.

Paul.

 

Glad to help Paul, the 4th Battalion sounds like a good lead.  You can read about that battalion's activities (movements etc) in the 'Long, long Trail' part of this forum, the link to it is at the top left of the page, then follow the Army, Regiments, Battalions sections in turn.

Edited 31 January , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[paul2018]

Hello again Frogsmile.

I still havent found our ancestor William Robson.  Narrowing down candidates a little mind but its still going to be a while.  Anyhow, just wanted to get your feedback again on this uniform.  I have posted this picture on another genealogy site asking for help and someone was confused by the uniform.  They say its not a typical uniform and the swagger stick and the silver chain in his pocket could mean he was an Officer instead of a Private.  He also points to there being no epaulet and sleeve stripes.  Is there anything to that ?

 

As I understood it from your original reply last year, William in the photo was not in his typical uniform he would wear for war, but in his parade uniform and that the swagger stick is part of this and very common among Privates too. 

 

Is this also why the cap badge does not look like a typical Northumberland Fusilier badge ?  Because I have looked at quite a few of those badges and I cannot yet see any badge that looks like the one our William wears in the photo.

 

Many thanks.

Paul.

 

 

[Pat Atkins]

A swagger stick doesn't mean an officer - as Frogsmile said they were part of 'walking out' attire for Other Ranks (I have a feeling they were meant to keep soldiers' hands out of their pockets!). I don't know about watch chains, but to be honest there's nothing I can see in that picture which suggests an officer, though others may well know better.

 

Cheers, Pat.

 

Edit: I can see what you mean about the cap badge, though I can't think of a suggestion for which regiment if it isn't NF.

Edited 6 April , 2018 by Pat Atkins

[paul2018]

Thanks Pat.  I don't believe he is an officer but needed to know for certain to help with elimination of many Robsons.  What do you think about the cap badge?  It does not look like any NF cap badges I have seen, is this because the cap is also a walking out attire and not the usual uniform?  I was thinking that there may have been different style of cap badges within the NF regiment.

Thanks.

Paul.

[paul2018]

Thanks Pat, if I do manage to find a badge that looks like it I will post back let you all know.

Paul.

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Quote

He also points to there being no epaulet and sleeve stripes. 

 

There are epaulettes.

 

The absence of any sleeve stripes indicates a Private who:

 

a. Has not yet served overseas so no Overseas service chevrons on his right sleeve

b. Has not earned any Good Conduct Chevrons so none on his left sleeve. 

c. Because he has not been overseas has not been wounded hence no wound stripe.

 

Dave

[paul2018]

Thanks Dave.  I meant to say he pointed out there are no signs or stripes on epaulettes or sleeves, thanks for correction.

 

I take it this does not negate Frogsmiles observation that his stylised puttees suggest military experience of some sort, possibly medical? Simply that he has not served overseas, nor been wounded etc does not exclude possibility that he may have been serving in Territorial Force in some manner ?

Paul.

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Paul

 

Frogmile's summation is spot on so no my comments in no way negate his.

 

Dave

[paul2018]

Many thanks Dave.

[FROGSMILE]

Paul, be aware that the Northumberland Fusiliers cap badge in WW1 was a different overall shape in WW1 From what it was in WW2, although the central device/motif was the same ‘St George and Dragon’.  The WW1 NF cap badge had the same outline shape as the Inniskilling Fusiliers and the Royal Munster Fusiliers.  My original assessment is unchanged.

Edited 7 April , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[paul2018]

Thanks Frogsmile.  I have definitely seen the likeness of his badge to that of the Inniskilling Fusiliers and that was going to be my next post actually, to suggest he maybe was in that regiment instead.  I never even thought about WW2 NF badges I was simply looking up all the WW1 NF cap badge pictures I could find, and didnt see any coming close except the Inniskilling Fusiliers as you point out, but even that is not exact.  I just really expected to see a definite WW1 badge exact to my William's in his photo, and was a little frustrated when I could not find one.  Maybe the picture is a bit too damaged and we are not seeing what it really looked like.  You and others on here are definitely of the mind he was in NF and that would certainly make sense.  I am told that the majority of lads in Newcastle either ended up in NF or the Kings Scottish Borderers regiment, so as you originally said the NF is the best bet for him.  If I find out anything new about his badge I will post back here with that info.  

 

I am very grateful for your replies mate really I am.  That goes for the others on here too who have offered me great info.  I will be continuing my searches for William in the NF regiment as I have been.  Have a large list of Robsons to try and eliminate and its a difficult task and time consuming.  That's how it goes.

Thanks again for all the help.

[Ron Clifton]

On 4/6/2018 at 13:09, Pat Atkins said:

to be honest there's nothing I can see in that picture which suggests an officer, though others may well know better.

Pat

 

The collar closed at the neck suggests that he was not an officer, as does the webbing belt and the absence of a "Sam Browne". Officers did sometimes dress as other ranks to give them some protection against sniper attention, but not, I think, for a studio portrait.

 

Ron

[paul2018]

I have looked at the original photo again under magnifying glass and there appears to be faded writing on the cap itself just under the badge, across the rim.  I cannot make it out just yet but will soon be scanning it again to 1200 DPI and re-post that image.  Just wondering if it would be normal for a soldier to have any information written on his cap in those times.  It appears to be handwritten from what I can make out.  It's probably nothing but I will check it anyhow and repost new image.

Thanks.

PS...I just tried downloading the image of William I originally posted last year, and it is NOT the same quality image I posted as file size is only hundred KB in size and severely pixelated, whereas the one on my computer is 1MEG in size.  Just wondering if there are image restrictions stopping the better quality of my image uploads? 

Paul.

[paul2018]

Just adding link to original photo I tried to upload.  This is 600 DPI for now but better quality than the original photo posted on here.

Link...

https://ibb.co/hsdxz7

 

Just so everyone can see better what the cap badge looks like.

[FROGSMILE]

That’s much clearer now Paul and like some other posters I now think  that the badge is that of the Inniskilling Fusiliers, as I believe I can see the castle device and regimental title scroll beneath it.  It appears to be a bi-metal badge, which is also an indicator.

[paul2018]

Thanks Frogsmile, many seem to be going with Inniskilling even on another forum.  The only slight issue now then is his daughters birth certificate in 1913 stating William Robson was a Labourer, but you and others have suggested he could have had prior experience, when according to a poster on a separate forum the Inniskilling did not have a Territorial Battalion in WW1...Could William have still been with the Inniskillings in 1914 yet been a Laborer in July 1913 when there was no equivalent of a modern TA with Inniskillings?

Thanks.

Paul.

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Quote

Could William have still been with the Inniskillings in 1914 yet been a Laborer in July 1913 when there was no equivalent of a modern TA with Inniskillings?

 

In Ireland, where the Territorial Force was not created, the Special Reserve (SR)  was the only form of part-time soldiering. So possibly he served with the Inniskilling's SR Battalion.

[paul2018]

52 minutes ago, HERITAGE PLUS said:

 

In Ireland, where the Territorial Force was not created, the Special Reserve (SR)  was the only form of part-time soldiering. So possibly he served with the Inniskilling's SR Battalion.

Thanks very much for this vital piece of information, it could well be the answer.  I will look further into this and other candidates.

Many thanks.

Paul.

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, paul2018 said:

Thanks very much for this vital piece of information, it could well be the answer.  I will look further into this and other candidates.

Many thanks.

Paul.

 

There were no Territorials because of the troubles between Unionists and Nationalists and the fact that the company locations that were traditional with that type of auxiliary soldiering would have placed arms (rifles and pistols) within easy reach.

The Special Reserve (SR) were organised differently, without company locations and instead reported annually for a fortnight long camp.  The mobilisation centre was a single location, the regimental depot and it was there, in a central keep, well guarded behind barracks walls, that the unit arms were kept.  Prior to 1908 the SR were known as the Militia and in times of political trouble called out to reinforce the civil authorities and the rule of law.

Edited 25 April , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Keith1914]

This might sound strange. Quite some years ago,  I found the photo you originally posted on here (or somewhere else ) and I attempted to restore it just to get the hang of some new software I had.  I chose this because when i saw it, it occurred to me that I'd actually been sitting near you in Newc central library looking through the illustrated News archives with someone and mentioning that name. I gave up for other priorities but found it again last week so thought I'd tidy it up and pass it on to you.  Its not finished, shadows around the feet are not right and I hope I have not created information in it that will confuse identification.

[Michelle Young]

@paul2018 hasn’t visited the forum since 2018. My tag might alert them to your post. 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Keith1914 said:

This might sound strange. Quite some years ago,  I found the photo you originally posted on here (or somewhere else ) and I attempted to restore it just to get the hang of some new software I had.  I chose this because when i saw it, it occurred to me that I'd actually been sitting near you in Newc central library looking through the illustrated News archives with someone and mentioning that name. I gave up for other priorities but found it again last week so thought I'd tidy it up and pass it on to you.  Its not finished, shadows around the feet are not right and I hope I have not created information in it that will confuse identification.

It’s a very good reconstruction of the profoundly damaged original image.  This is how the cap badge should ideally look.

Edited 26 April by FROGSMILE