The Red Baron Posted 29 January , 2017 Share Posted 29 January , 2017 I recently picked up this entrenching tool, as you can see it's not in the best condition, because of this I can not see the date stamp, I am aware that this style of tool was used in both WW1 and WW2, is there anyway to tell the difference between the two, as I would just like to identify roughly when it is from, can anyone help me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 29 January , 2017 Share Posted 29 January , 2017 Hi, It looks very similar to one that I queried in below topic. If so WW1 vintage. Steve Y . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 29 January , 2017 Share Posted 29 January , 2017 That is a WW2 entrenching tool, you can tell by the rounded corners. The WW1 ones are much more squared-off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnlo499 Posted 31 January , 2017 Share Posted 31 January , 2017 The helve is sometimes marked just below the steel cap. If you look closely you may be able to see a manufacture stamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 3 February , 2017 Share Posted 3 February , 2017 The helve does look the thin type which I think to be a good pointer to it being Great War. Would be interested on other opinion on that. Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 3 February , 2017 Share Posted 3 February , 2017 A long time ago (about 1978) I had the opportunity to inspect a large number of entrenching tools, about 4,000. (I only looked at a hundred or so). These were part of the Royal Navy – China-Pacific reserve supply of equipment being held here in Sydney and being sold by the Australian system on behalf of the UK Government. They were about 1/3rd WW1 and 2/3rd WW2. All the WW2 were brand new, never used, in the black dip finish. The WW1 were "used" that is unpainted with minor wear. The handles (helves) were all boxed loose from the heads. There was a very wide variety of maker marks on the WW1 heads. There were a number of minor variations of the WW1 - the WW2 were very uniform in manufacture. The common feature I noted was the shape of the socket of the head where the WW1 was flatter and rounder in section. From your photos I would pick your tool as WW1. Incidentally, the 4,000 tools. They were bought by the east coast disposal store cartel. A small number ultimately appeared in some disposal stores in Brisbane and Melbourne (probably only a few hundred). I can only assumed that the remainder were burned as scrap metal. I bought a dozen WW1 tools to put away. Amongst other items in this auction was a pallet of WW1 web pouches for the mills grenade launcher. Brand new, probably about 500 pieces. I had no idea what they were. I let the cartel buy them and latter bought 1-only from a disposal store. – Mistakes we make Cheers Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 21 February , 2017 Share Posted 21 February , 2017 On 03/02/2017 at 07:49, Wardog said: The helve does look the thin type which I think to be a good pointer to it being Great War. Would be interested on other opinion on that. Regards, Paul. Paul, If helve is original it would be 1ww as 2ww items have a socket for the No 4 bayonet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_C Posted 21 February , 2017 Share Posted 21 February , 2017 1 hour ago, Tomo.T said: Paul, If helve is original it would be 1ww as 2ww items have a socket for the No 4 bayonet. Not wholly true - the Mk II helve, with the spike bayonet adaptor, was only introduced in June 1944, and contemporary photographs suggest that very few were issued before the end of the war. Prior to this the 'Mk I' helve was the universal issue. The Great War dated helves in my collection are noticeably thinner than my 1944 dated example, so in the absence of a date, this can be a rough guide to age. Cheers Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 21 February , 2017 Share Posted 21 February , 2017 Thanks for that ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 23 February , 2017 Share Posted 23 February , 2017 (edited) Cheers Pete. Any helve markings/date pictures you can post? I have seen Canada 1915 marks on woodwork- but I don't think marked helves are too common- anything on metal work of helves?Regards, Paul. Edited 23 February , 2017 by Wardog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 11 March , 2017 Share Posted 11 March , 2017 As I've already mentioned, the tool is WW2 vintage, though the handle is undateable and might be anytime. The shape of the tool changed to rounded corners in WW2. For those not convinced, here is a typical WW2 tool head dated 1944: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-GENUINE-WW2-BRITISH-ARMY-37-PATTERN-SHOVEL-PICK-ENTRENCHING-TOOL-DATED-1944-/201821249521?hash=item2efd7bdff1:g:qT0AAOSwOgdYpYan Of course, if anyone can show me a WW1 dated head like it I'll happily modify my opinion. Any takers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 11 March , 2017 Share Posted 11 March , 2017 A small sample I know. Left and right, square corners, dated 1917, Centre, same shape as O.P's dated 1941. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oz Ubique Posted 12 March , 2017 Share Posted 12 March , 2017 My little collection. L > R: Sheffield Hardypick England 1939 H. V. McKay Australia 1916 G(?) H. Bishop 1916 Australia Chillington 1918 (still in black dip) Meadowbank Australia 1917 Oz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 12 March , 2017 Share Posted 12 March , 2017 6 hours ago, Oz Ubique said: My little collection. L > R: Sheffield Hardypick England 1939 H. V. McKay Australia 1916 G(?) H. Bishop 1916 Australia Chillington 1918 (still in black dip) Meadowbank Australia 1917 Oz. Ok, proof positive and I accept I was mistaken about rounded corners being WW2! Sorry for any misdirection chaps. I still think the OP tool is later as the rounding appears more pronounced to me and typical of WW2, but that's just an opinion and I'm not claiming it's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oz Ubique Posted 12 March , 2017 Share Posted 12 March , 2017 Wainfleet, your statement about [broadly] rounded corners is still probably correct 'most of the time'. I was simply showing my collection to illustrate how the different manufacturers applied their own subtle interpretations. If I had found the OP's E.T. tool, then I would have drawn the same conclusions as yourself. Most likely WWII vintage. Oz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 12 March , 2017 Share Posted 12 March , 2017 (edited) My first job was with English Tools in Wigan in the early 1960's. The company 'museum', actually a corner of a very dusty area over the pattern shop contained I feel sure some examples of entrenching tools, though not sure from what era. Also a 'Bulldog' spade, part of a large consignment seized by the Japanese from the E.T. distributor in Singapore for use on the Burma 'Death Railway', more than half of the blade was worn away, and that would have taken some doing on a Bulldog product. Mike. Edited 12 March , 2017 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lammy Posted 26 May , 2021 Share Posted 26 May , 2021 I think you are correct about the corners. Check the angle, the corners start much further down from the edge, on the ww2 version Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 4 March , 2023 Share Posted 4 March , 2023 I have a 1915 dated Lucas, but recently came across what I thought a WW1 head for a couple of quid, covered in rust and mud. Cleaned it up at home and really surprised to see a date of 1950!….didn’t realise they even made them that late! Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 10 March , 2023 Share Posted 10 March , 2023 I have one with 1915 stamped on, I can't find a WD stamp. Gerwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 11 March , 2023 Share Posted 11 March , 2023 I think they were in use for a long time after WWII - even after 1958 Pattern webbing was introduced. E.g. I have a MECo 1962 marked P37 e-tool head carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 11 March , 2023 Share Posted 11 March , 2023 3 hours ago, peregrinvs said: I think they were in use for a long time after WWII - even after 1958 Pattern webbing was introduced. E.g. I have a MECo 1962 marked P37 e-tool head carrier. Thanks for that, interesting, I would never have imagined that late. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now