Did General Sordet intervene on the british left at le cateau.

[dansparky]

Hi Dave

 

Cab 45/206 part iv has the SD statement.  Its 60 pages long then quite a few appendecies.  Page 19 and 45 are the most interesting with regard to this topic :-)

 

Dan

[lostinspace]

Something else I looked at last night were the pages provided by the French in response to Edmonds' request, and the Historical Section summary of that information.  With the help of Google Earth I plotted the movements of the 11th (Dragoon) Brigade of 1 Cavalry Division and was somewhat surprised to find that, at least this brigade, moved well south of British II Corps and wouldn't have interfered in any way with Smith-Dorrien's retreat. In connection with this, the intelligence officer sent out by Edmonds to search for Sordet's cavalry gave the Historical Section (CAB 45/129) a map with his search route (in red) marked on it  -
 

It is strange that he covered the area where units of 1st Cavalry Division were billeted (around Lesdain), but did not see them, although he was at the extreme southwest corner of the search route and it was probably getting dark.  According to the French account the cavalry arrived around 7:00 p.m., while the intelligence officer's search began at 6:15 p.m. and he returned to Viesly at 8:15 p.m.
 

Dave

 

[stiletto_33853]

Dave,

 

In the SD papers (CAB45/206) you have access to there is a section concerning SD's response to SJF 1914 (part 4), his comments on the book etc The other parts deal with correspondence and his diary.

 

Oh well Dan beat me to it.

 

Andy.

 

Edited 25 January , 2017 by stiletto_33853

[dansparky]

Thanks Dave.

 

It is unlikely this motor cyclist would have even encountered Sordet according to this map.  At the end of the day he rested at walincourt (which you can see on the map), near selvigny.  The cyclist also followed this route the day before the battle.  At 8:30 am on the 26th he is placed in Gonnelieu which is 21 miles away from le cateau further to the west, south-west of this position(not on this map).

 

Positions according to http://www.sambre-marne-yser.be/article.php3?id_article=89

[dansparky]

However on the 25th Sordet may have marched on a route that went through search area.  But may have just missed each other.

[lostinspace]

Andy,

Thanks for that, I'm sure it will be interesting. S-D had to be seething by the time he was allowed to respond.
Dave

[dansparky]

The encounter the next day is at Séranvillers-Forenville mighty close to ligny and others.  This position closer to briastre the hq for  for 4th div I believe at this moment. p.16 snow, pottle,2011.  It is however, not much further to cambrai so not sure how certain Snow could be that it came from there.  Its the same direction and as i say not much further.

[lostinspace]

Dan,

I'm thinking that Sordet's corps must have moved, not in one compact mass, but in long straggling columns through many different villages and by many different roads. I think they probably arrived at their destinations throughout the night of the 25th and maybe even into the morning of the 26th. Movement reports are likely far tidier than what actually took place on the ground, so I guess it shouldn't be too shocking if a solitary motorcyclist missed them. On the other hand, I doubt if the Intelligence Corps officer had much experience in this kind of work; from what I've read about the Interpreter and Intelligence Corps, they were formed after the outbreak of war, and although there were some army personnel there were also civilians "invited" to join. The individual who gave the above map and information to the Historical Section didn't have a very legible signature but might be 2nd Lieutenant Charles Fairbairn, who later in the war became a Captain in the R.F.C. 

Dave

 

[dansparky]

Thanks Dave,

 

It looks like they were not in the same place at precisely the same time, based on stated times. Also if not travelling on mass, would have been even harder to spot.

[dansparky]

Managed to extract the text from the image of the French official history shared by steve.  Then ran it through google translate, for a rough translation. 

 

In the morning of the 26th. General Sordet gathers his divisions on the Fscaut ( trescault?)in the region of Gotizeaucourt.
Cost the gull is touched(?) by the call of the French marshal, then by the following message of colonel Iluguethauget) • General Joltre (joffre) asks you not to cover the left of the army ang, laise, but still to intervene in The battle with all the forces which you can dispose of and with the greatest energy. General Sordet accordingly proceeds between Marcoing and Crevecteur. From there, the artillery of its divisions entered successively and took over the enemy forces, which by Forenville and Seranvillers attacked the 4th English division, while the cyclists successfully maintained a strong engagement with Seranvillers. Then, breaking off the combat, the cavalry corps retreated so as to cover the English left, and reached with the horses completely exhausted the region north-west of Villers-Faticon. In the course of the day, General Sordet was informed that four battalions of reserve ships, disembarking at Amiens, would be ready to serve him as sotttien (??? do not understand this bit) on the 27th of August.

 

DS.

[dansparky]

the french papers located in cab 45/129 (iv) do not seem to mention an artillery duel on the 26th?   Maybe is difficulties with translation but it seems to mention only enemy infantry movements.

[Martin Bennitt]

Oh no, not Google translate

 

This is what it really says, changing the French historic present to the past historic and substituting British for English:

 

"On the morning of August 26, General Sordet assembled his divisions west of the Escaut (the river Scheldt in French) in the Gouzeaucourt area.

"There he received the appeal from Field Marshal French, and the following message from Colonel Huguet: 'General Joffre asks you not only to cover the left of the British army but also to intervene intervene in the battle with all the force you can muster, and with the utmost energy. ' As a result General Sordet moved to between Marcoing and Crèvecoeur. From there his divisional artillery came into line in turn and fired on the flank of the enemy forces which were attacking the British 4th Division through Forenville and Sèranvillers, while the cyclists successfully supported a fierce engagement at Séranvillers. Then, breaking off the action, the cavalry corps withdrew in order to cover the British left and arrived in the area north-west of Villers-Faucon with its horses completely exhausted. During the day General Sordet was informed that four battalions of chasseurs, disembarking in Amiens, would be ready to give him support on August 28."

 

Cheers Martin B

 

 

[dansparky]

Thanks Martin B, well it was kind of close.  I cannot speak much french was the closest i could get.  Are you fluent?  or did you use a different translator?

 

Dan

[Martin Bennitt]

8 hours ago, dansparky said:

Thanks Martin B, well it was kind of close.  I cannot speak much french was the closest i could get.  Are you fluent?  or did you use a different translator?

 

Dan

 

I moved to France in 1979 so I have a reasonable command of the language. Google translate's big howler was saying Joffre ordered Sordet not to cover the 4th Division's left, when the opposite was true. Where they got the gull from I have no idea.

 

Cheers Martin B

[SteveMarsdin]

Good morning,

 

I can't find exact details of how many artillery pieces fired and for how long but in August 1914 a French cavalry division had three batteries of four 75mm guns. The 5eDC JMO confirms its artillery was in action and also that of the 3eDC, so that's a maximum of 24 guns. As Jan pointed out: Sordet's Cavalry Corps had spent 2 weeks chasing around Belgium looking for the Germans without much success and with poor management their horses were exhausted, so I don't know whether they still had their full complement of guns.

 

The French 75mm was a superb gun for what it was designed for but of limited use in trench warfare, against fortified or dug-in positions and the steep wooded valleys of the Belgian Ardennes. It would have been more at home in the gently undulating land around Le Cateau. A 4-gun battery firing shrapnel could deliver 17,000 ball projectiles over an area 100 meters wide by 400 meters long in a single minute, with devastating results. The French 75 easily delivered fifteen aimed rounds per minute and could fire even faster, reaching close to 30 rounds per minute, albeit only for a very short time and with a highly experienced crew. The Germans wouldn't have wanted to be caught in the open by the French 75s and would have needed to deal with any French artillery involvement, adapting their plans accordingly

 

Steve

[dansparky]

2 hours ago, Martin Bennitt said:

 

I moved to France in 1979 so I have a reasonable command of the language. Google translate's big howler was saying Joffre ordered Sordet not to cover the 4th Division's left, when the opposite was true. Where they got the gull from I have no idea.

 

Cheers Martin B

 

Hi Martin,

 

Ah, France sounds nice.

 

Yes, google translate said not to, where as your translation said not only to.  Is a definite difference, I would have never noticed that.  1. because I can speak french and 2. it didn't seem wrong as I knew Joffre had ordered direct intervention and not just to monitor and cover.  So I assumed it was right.

 

Thanks, Martin.

 

Do you know of any good translation sites?  I am also going to share the french documents that cover 25-27.  Can you see if you can spot entry showing an artillery duel?  so far I only see mention of enemy infantry

 

 

[dansparky]

Thanks steve.

 

Yes, i believe the french 75 could not fire the weight of shell needed to take out trenches.  In addition, I don't think it had the elevation to be of use outside of direct fire against infantry.  But I might be wrong on that.

[dansparky]

rough translations for page 2 26/08/1914 for 14:10hrs 16:20hrs 17:30hrs and 1830hrs.  do not seem to have mention german artillery only Infantry.  Will attempt to roughly translate some other entries.

[SteveMarsdin]

As far as I can see the pages you've posted refer only to the 1eDC and not the other two (3e and 5e) that we know from the 5e's JMO engage the enemy with their artillery

 

1 hour ago, dansparky said:

Thanks steve.

 

Yes, i believe the french 75 could not fire the weight of shell needed to take out trenches.  In addition, I don't think it had the elevation to be of use outside of direct fire against infantry.  But I might be wrong on that.

 

On the terrain near Le Cateau, against advancing Germans, I think it had the capability to inflict substantial damage and would certainly warrant German attention.

 

Steve

 

[dansparky]

Ah thanks, steve.

 

I wondered if it referred to Sordet's whole force. I had a suspicion it didn't.  Thankyou.

[lostinspace]

Dan,

Do you have the Historical Section summaries of the French information at the end of the Sordet file? Here is the first page, provided by Andy (stiletto) -   

[dansparky]

Hi, dave.

 

Yes i do, whish i knew what it said :-(. som many hand written docs i have trouble reading, even harder when in french. 

 

Dan

[dansparky]

8 minutes ago, dansparky said:

Hi, dave.

 

Yes i do, whish i knew what it said :-(. som many hand written docs i have trouble reading, even harder when in french. 

 

Dan

 

apologies its in english.

 

[dansparky]

[lostinspace]

Dan,
I think we also need to look at the role of the French 84th Territorial Division and its defense of Cambrai. They were key (with the assistance of Sordet's artillery) in holding just long enough to keep the Germans from enveloping the left flank of 4th Division, I'll see what I can find.
Dave