Andrew Beauchamp-Proctor VC, DSO, MC*, DFC

[Stoppage Drill]

Beauchamp-Proctor was killed in a flying accident at RAF Upavon on 21 June 1921. 

Originally buried in the village cemetery, his remains were disinterred in the August to be taken to Souh Africa where they were reinterred with some ceremony.

I was surprised to see a CWGC headstone for him at Upavon, which stands in the normal fashion in the rank and file of many other RFC/ RAF graves. 

It just looks like a normal grave, with no explanation or indication that it is not.

To me, this seems odd.

 

Can informed Pals comment ?

[Steven Broomfield]

How odd. Out of interest, I assume the cemetery is worth a visit ...

[Stephen Nulty]

Is it actually a CWGC stone? The top curve looks unusual .......

 

[Phil Evans]

All his CWGC paperwork shows the correct burial place.

It doesn't look like he was ever included on the final Upavon Grave Registration Report Forms. These are dated 1922.

Normally in the case of removed CWGC burials, all CWGC grave markers are removed. I believe that the current policy with headstones is that they are obliterated or broken up.

 

If the grave was privately purchased by the family, it is more likely, providing that they didn't relinquish it, that they erected there own headstone there as a memorial. Stephen has probably hit the nail on the head.

 

Phil

[PaulC78]

2 hours ago, Stephen Nulty said:

Is it actually a CWGC stone? The top curve looks unusual .......

 

 

It's the same shape as the modern RAF headstones...

[Stephen Nulty]

Also at Upavaon.....

 

There is a picture of the BEAUCHAMP-PROCTOR headstone on the CWGC site, and adjacent to it is one which APPEARS to bear the name of WILLIAM J FISHER, though it pixellates when enlarged and isn't 100% clear.

 

I can't find any reference to a casualty of this name in CWGC's Upavon register. 

 

Also noted....

Grave Reference 19 originally held the body of Lt J G TREES, USAS. "Body removed to America"

 

Grave Reference Row A Grave 1 is not shown on CWGC site. It is Naval Cadet J N BATES, RNR, 10/09/1943 with comments "No Register Entry" and "N.W.G" (non-war grave). Cadet Bates was killed in a flying accident along with Flt Lt D BANHAM and Sgt H BURKHARD and the three of them lie in adjacent graves. While noting the "NWG" comment, it seems strange that Cadet Bates is not listed on CWGC

[Stoppage Drill]

I noted the Trees grave. Inscribed as "Joe G Trees, United States Air Service" . Not a CWGC stone.

 

Edit: Trees' headstone (rather grand) is near B-P's in a separate area. I wonder if this area contains, as memorials, the headstones of people whose remains have been removed after an initial burial ? 

It doesn't look like that though; the headstones are arranged in the normal manner, with "grave-sized" spacing between them.

 

Post #2 above asks if the cemetery is worth a visit. Yes, I think so. It is a pleasant little burial ground tucked away up a track. There are many service burials, nearly all from the nearby airfield. Some of the deaths occurred due to pre-GW flying accidents. (CFS Upavon was a joint RNAS/RFC organisation, which opened in 1912, I think, and the first Commandant was a RN officer, Captain GM Paine, who went on to a distinguished RAF career.)

A lot of WW2 burials - always sad to see what is obviously a crew lying side by side.

However, the main military burial area is presently cordoned off due to re-turfing.

Edited 24 January , 2017 by Stoppage Drill

[chrisharley9]

Stephen

 

He will be John N Bates aged about 14 reg district Salisbury. My thinking here is that he will not be eligible for war grave status as I would say that he would be a sea cadet. However would be eligible for the civilian ROH.

 

Chris 

[Moonraker]

1 hour ago, Stoppage Drill said:

I noted the Trees grave. Inscribed as "Joe G Trees, United States Air Service" . Not a CWGC stone.

 

My venerable copy of The War Graves of the British Empire (Wiltshire volume), published in 1930, notes 35 war graves, "numbered 1 to 36". "That of an American airman has been removed".

 

No reference to Beauchamp-Proctor, Fisher or Bates.

[Stephen Nulty]

1 hour ago, Stoppage Drill said:

 Some of the deaths occurred due to pre-GW flying accidents.

 

I noted that Lt Hugh F TREEBY, Duke of Wellington Regt., lies in Grave No 2 of the main plot. His date of death is 09/03/1914 

 

Coroner's Inquest

 

Chris - thanks for that

Edited 24 January , 2017 by Stephen Nulty

[Stoppage Drill]

Thanks Stephen.

[chrisharley9]

Stephen

 

Will get John Bates submitted to CWGC as civilian war dead with you as the finding volunteer.

 

Chris

[Stephen Nulty]

Thanks Chris. He's already in their care so it looks like a case of administrative changes only

 

[chrisharley9]

a bit deeper than that Stephen. He has an entry in the naval death registers as midshipman naval cadet. Making further enquiries

 

Chris   

[Stephen Nulty]

OK, thanks Chris. Keep us informed !

 

5 hours ago, Stephen Nulty said:

There is a picture of the BEAUCHAMP-PROCTOR headstone on the CWGC site, and adjacent to it is one which APPEARS to bear the name of WILLIAM J FISHER, though it pixellates when enlarged and isn't 100% clear.

 

I can't find any reference to a casualty of this name in CWGC's Upavon register. 

 

 

BTW, has anybody managed to figure out whose grave this is (FISHER)?

[Stephen Nulty]

2 hours ago, Stoppage Drill said:

Thanks Stephen.

 

It's also curious because he was exhumed and returned to South Africa in 1921 and yet the IWGC/CWGC headstones would only have been erected about 5 years later!

 

[Stoppage Drill]

Curiouser and curioser, said Alice.

Mind you (I have mentioned this before on the Forum) I know of a IWGC headstone which was in use as a doorstep at least up to about 10 years ago when I saw it.

Story was that it was for a Canadian of the First Contingent who died near Larkhill during the harsh winter of 1914. His family repatriated the body, but in due course the headstone was made and delivered to the cemetery near Larkhill where it was assumed he was buried. 

The vicar, apparently a parsimonious man, acquired it and used it for a doorstep at his vicarage where it remained until I saw it, and where it may well still be !

[Gareth Davies]

There are 2 Canadians in Tilshead, 2 in Orcheston, 1 in Durrington, and 11 in Bulford that meet those criteria.

[Stoppage Drill]

Respect for the present occupier's privacy absolutely precludes me from giving any further information.

[Moonraker]

On 24/01/2017 at 11:59, Stephen Nulty said:

 

I noted that Lt Hugh F TREEBY, Duke of Wellington Regt., lies in Grave No 2 of the main plot. His date of death is 09/03/1914 

 

Treeby's funeral procession in Upavon village

 

Edited 26 January , 2017 by Moonraker
wrong cards, more haste, less speed

[Stoppage Drill]

Some observations relative to divers comments above, plus others:

 

1.   The inscription on the monument to the American reads, "In Memory of Joe Graham Trees, 1st Lieutenant Unites States Air Service. Killed at Upavon While Flying in the Line of Duty. June 13 1918"

American usages, unsurprisingly.

 

2.   The only RFC badge I could see was for "Second Lieutenant B. O. L. Hahn, Royal Flying Corps, 13th October 1917, Aged 17" 

 

3.   "Fisher's" headstone shows, 326979 Aircraftsman 2nd Class William J. Fisher, Royal Air Force, 30th October 1924 Aged 22"

 

4.   Bates's reads, "Naval Cadet John Naunton Bates, Royal Naval Reserve, 16th September 1943, Age 14."

 

5.   Another headstone reads, " 11500 Member Janet Anderson-Hastie, Womens Royal Air Force, 24th December 1918"

      I haven't seen the term "Member" before, as far as I can recall.

 

6.   Several headstones appear to be replacements: the stone is different from the familiar matt white Portland, and has slight veining, like marble.

 

7.   The tops of I/CWGC headstones are in three styles. A simple curve, a compound curve (concave at the sides leading to a convex centre) then a stepped style with a notch on each shoulder either side of a central convex curve.

 

 

 

[Gareth Davies]

Ref No 7:  The first style is the CWGC headstone, the other two are two styles of the MOD headstone.  The CWGC has no responsibility for the latter but as many are in cemeteries that also have CWGC headstones they are looking at how the two organisations might help each other a little better.  

[Stoppage Drill]

Thanks. Didn't know that.

 

 

 

 

[Stephen Nulty]

3 hours ago, Stoppage Drill said:

 

3.   "Fisher's" headstone shows, 326979 Aircraftsman 2nd Class William J. Fisher, Royal Air Force, 30th October 1924 Aged 22"

 

Ah, so after Great War cutoff date, which explains his absence from the online register.

 

My interest in  Upavon is due to it being the resting place of one of my Prescot men, Walter Longton

 

http://www.prescot-rollofhonour.info/alsoserved-264-Walter_Hunt_Longton.html

 

[The Scorer]

5 hours ago, Stoppage Drill said:

Some observations relative to divers comments above, plus others:

7.   The tops of I/CWGC headstones are in three styles. A simple curve, a compound curve (concave at the sides leading to a convex centre) then a stepped style with a notch on each shoulder either side of a central convex curve.

 

 

5 hours ago, Gareth Davies said:

Ref No 7:  The first style is the CWGC headstone, the other two are two styles of the MOD headstone.  The CWGC has no responsibility for the latter but as many are in cemeteries that also have CWGC headstones they are looking at how the two organisations might help each other a little better.  

 

4 hours ago, Stoppage Drill said:

Thanks. Didn't know that.

 

 

I understand that the latter two styles are used for service personnel who died in service but outwith the two periods used by the CWGC.

 

Slightly off-topic, there's one in my local cemetery in Newport of an RAF Aircraftsman (who was previously a Sergeant in the Welsh Guards) who died on duty a couple of years ago.