RE8's in Mesopotamia

[david murdoch]

Doing some research on flying in Mesopotamia. I'm looking to find out all units that used RE8s. Family story my grandfather flew in WWI - backseat in RE8s. Now he was only ever in the Motor Machine Gun Service and then MGC (Motors) and I'd assumed previously he may have been temporary attached to cover for shortage of gunners, in France. However I now know he was already out in Mesopotamia when RE8s came into service. So whatever flying he did was there. So this is narrowing down which squadron  RFC (or AFC) he may have flown with. Possible candidate may be 63 squadron - when they first arrived in Mesopotamia  63 Squadron in Basra on 13th 1917 they promptly went down with heat stroke. Only six out of the 30 officers were left standing and only 70 men out of 200. So could be some of the L.A.M.B trained gunners acted as aerial gunners on a temporary basis.

Story goes he "bombed"  dropping mills bombs over the side from a wicker basket. I have an old newspaper clipping he kept  of an RE8 certainly in Middle East, and also a photograph of him with the armoured cars where he appears (seated) to be wearing an RFC Maternity type tunic. I'm really looking for a lead as to which Squadron records I need to be hunting  to see if there is a mention of MGC personnel flying with them.

[pete-c]

Use of the R.E.8. in Mesopotamia was I believe limited to 30 and 63 Sqns.  This type first mentioned in respect of 30 Sqn in October 1917.  As you mention, 63 Sqn seems to have been in this theatre from September of the same year. 

 

I'm sure if you posted the man's name, others on the Forum would be able to give you more comprehensive details.  You may also want to keep an eye out for a forthcoming Cross & Cockade publication dealing exclusively with operations in this theatre.

[david murdoch]

My grandfather was  R.V. Murray 2133  MMGS/MGC(M) He served in Mesopotamia with 8th L.A.M.B /L.A.M.B Brigade from December 1917 to beginning 1920, so that discounts  the personnel issues 63 squadron had when they arrived in August 1917.

Attached photo is of a 63 Squadron RE8 in Mesopotamia. Any idea what the emblem is on the engine cowling? Looks a it MGC, but I've not seen a clearer picture or come up with anything  for  63 Squadron emblems for that time.

Edited 17 January , 2017 by david murdoch

[pete-c]

David, this previous post may be of interest to you - provided of course that you haven't already seen it.

Edited 17 January , 2017 by pete-c

[MikeMeech]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

My grandfather was  R.V. Murray 2133  MMGS/MGC(M) He served in Mesopotamia with 8th L.A.M.B /L.A.M.B Brigade from December 1917 to beginning 1920, so that discounts  the personnel issues 63 squadron had when they arrived in August 1917.

Attached photo is of a 63 Squadron RE8 in Mesopotamia. Any idea what the emblem is on the engine cowling? Looks a it MGC, but I've not seen a clearer picture or come up with anything  for  63 Squadron emblems for that time.

Hi

The emblem appears to be more like a 'Skull and cross bones'.  No.63 Sqn.  had RE.8 aircraft as part of its establishment from September 1917 to about February 1920, in this theatre.  Have you a date for this image?

 

The aircraft itself has been equipped for Contact/Counter Attack patrols,  it has the end of the wireless aerial hanging below the fuselage under the roundel and further aft the 'sound end' of the Klaxon is sticking out below the fuselage.  It appears it may also have bomb racks.  No Contact Patrol marking can be seen clearly but there is possibly a 'streamer' on the starboard wing trailing edge seen below the fuselage, however, it is not clear enough to be definite.

 

Mike

[david murdoch]

Mike. This image is one I picked up many years ago when at the IWM library. It's now online. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205267054

There is no date on it but 63 squadron for sure by the tail number. It only says it had made a forced landing (probably mechanical failure as it looks intact and landed on decent ground). I have not come up with anything searching 63 Squadron markings - maybe an individual pilot's "nose art".

[AntSherlock]

David. Trying to find info on 63 Squadron is as difficult as finding hen's teeth. My grand-father Lt Walter Nugent Sherlock was already on the ground in Mesopotamia in 1916/1917 with the Seaforth Highlanders - and he seems to have joined and been seconded to the RFC without having gone home. Presumably my grandfather did his Observer exams in Bombay or somewhere out there,as he teams up with the RFC in Mespot in late 17, and as is recorded, by then so many men from the boat with 63 Sq had fallen ill or died. He goes into 63 Squadron - and I can see from Harold Price's journal in "A rattle of pebbles" - that he is busy bombing from December 17 - March 18, particularly in RE 4343. If I find anything on Murdoch - I will give you a shout. A

[Manback]

Hi all.

Sorry I can't really give you any Info on the flyers. I am trying to research my wife's Great Grandad. He was MGC. Originally with the Imperial Camel corps.

 

We've been looking through his diary and photos and spotted a few RE8's. I though I might share with you.

 

I believe he went on to armoured cars when he gave up on camels. His diary shows that camel's didn't like being the firing platform for his Lewis gun.

 

 

[pete-c]

12 hours ago, Manback said:

Hi all.

Sorry I can't really give you any Info on the flyers. I am trying to research my wife's Great Grandad. He was MGC. Originally with the Imperial Camel corps.

 

We've been looking through his diary and photos and spotted a few RE8's. I though I might share with you.

 

I believe he went on to armoured cars when he gave up on camels. His diary shows that camel's didn't like being the firing platform for his Lewis gun.

 

 

 

Welcome to the Forum Manback.  The machine shown in your photo is in fact a B.E.2c of 30 Sqn - these machines making up the bulk of the RFC force in Mesopotamia.  Perhaps some of the other images in your wife's great granddad's collection do feature R.E.8s.  It would be great to see them.

Edited 8 May , 2018 by pete-c

[charlie962]

13 hours ago, Manback said:

His diary shows that camel's didn't like being the firing platform for his Lewis gun.

Clearly not one made by Mr Sopwith !!

[Guest]

Manback,

 

Mate sorry but can you give some details on your GF  *like name or any other details 

 

Cheers

S.B

[Manback]

Hi all.

Thanks for the replies. I thought I had set it to tell me when If there was any.

 

Sorry I thought the vertical exhausts were for the RE8. I'm not gonna argue I'm well out of my comfort zone here.

 

The chap was called James Tweddell.

His number was 1353. His transfer to reserve says he was in M.G.C (motors) 

 

A few more pics attached. 

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, Manback said:

Hi all.

Thanks for the replies. I thought I had set it to tell me when If there was any.

 

Sorry I thought the vertical exhausts were for the RE8. I'm not gonna argue I'm well out of my comfort zone here.

 

The chap was called James Tweddell.

His number was 1353. His transfer to reserve says he was in M.G.C (motors) 

 

A few more pics attached. 

 

 

Really interested in the picture of the armoured car. James Tweddell  was 1353 first in Motor Machine Gun Service and then MGC (Motors) with the same number. By his service number he enlisted on or just after 18/5/1915. He does not have a 14/15 Star, so only served overseas into 1916. He was possibly with one of the MMG batteries that did not deploy until early 1916. and then transferred into armoured cars. Does his diary give any clues which unit he was with? Really interested in any photos of the armoured cars, or any names mentioned in the diary.

[MaureenE]

Perhaps taken a bit later, but a great photo of armoured cars in Iraq. Flickr.com, collection of SDASM Archives. There are also a couple of others from the same source

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/7304659134/in/album-72157629974581728/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/7304645982/in/album-72157629974581728/

 

 

[pete-c]

The image of the armoured car is certainly interesting - especially the use of the running board for carrying the Douglas DR motorcycle.

[david murdoch]

7 hours ago, pete-c said:

The image of the armoured car is certainly interesting - especially the use of the running board for carrying the Douglas DR motorcycle.

Getting a wee bit off the original topic. The armoured car units used a number of solo motorcycles. 8th L.A.M.B war diary notes they had 14 of them. The armoured cars operated in minimum of two (a battery section) and always accompanied by motorcycles  (known as Jackals!) who acted as scouts/pathfinders and flank protection. In addition they were used for dispatching and contact between sections ect. There are other photos of cars fording rivers in Mesopotamia with the bikes piggy back on the cars. In this case possibly the bike is broken down, and been transported back lashed to the car. It's an interesting photo.

[Manback]

17 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Really interested in the picture of the armoured car. James Tweddell  was 1353 first in Motor Machine Gun Service and then MGC (Motors) with the same number. By his service number he enlisted on or just after 18/5/1915. He does not have a 14/15 Star, so only served overseas into 1916. He was possibly with one of the MMG batteries that did not deploy until early 1916. and then transferred into armoured cars. Does his diary give any clues which unit he was with? Really interested in any photos of the armoured cars, or any names mentioned in the diary.

HI David.

 

if you prefer i could start a new thread, i wasn't trying to derail this one. Basically we have some sort of hat box full of pics and some official papers as well as a diary. 

The diary is really a phone book and under each letter is a name and a place, some lines are just that, others go into great detail about the smells and sights.

James was an interesting chap, after WW1, he joined the merchant navy and finally back into service for ww2 where he was a POW camp guard as far as i can tell, despite the family believing his was actually a POW himself.

 

i believe this diary to have been composed later in life as its all done in the same pen and features information about the deaths of bombings in ww2, so a lot of it could be from memory and from old diarys.

 

i would be really interested to know where you get your information from David, the family is trying to pull it all together.

 

Im not sure if he was MCG motors first or MGC. he was in the ICC for the battle of Bershiba in 1916 as it it mentioned a few times, it looks like there was a small number of MCG men in the ICC, (the 265th MCG Camel)  115 men. i had assumed he was part of this.

 

His diary also talks about Al FAw in 1914, which i believe is earlier than he had enlisted but his brother was killed in Basra so it could easily be a reference to him rather than himself.

 

its clear he was in the middle east right untill the end of the war, he was even taken hostage at some point after war ended when defending some sort of religious group in Iraq.

 

i've added an image from the back of the car picture, which says "Do you like this. One of the Cars by moonlight. December 1917(not sure about the dates here) . Mesopotamia....

this in itself is confusing as we know he was on a camel in 16 yet cars in 17. 

 

 

cheers

[david murdoch]

No worries.

Probably best to start a new thread for him in Soldiers (where it will get more views!) with his name and number, and tag MMGS & MGC(Motors). On his medal card states MMGS(RA) and MGC and he's on the MGC (Motors) roll.  MMGS were taken over  by MGC when they formed in late 1915 and the original MMGS men were "transferred on paper" in the months following - keeping their original service numbers. On the medal roll confirms his transfer to reserve date. There is no mention of any other unit, but it was not uncommon for men to be temporarily attached to other units to assist with machine gun training. This post I originally started as my grandfather spent some time with RFC (in Mesopotamia), but this does not show on his medal card. The dated photo of the car in Mesopotamia narrows down which armoured car units were there at the time, and if he was previously with Camel Corps hints at one of a couple of units that went from Egypt to Mesopotamia. For sure when he enlisted he would be intending joining one of the Motor Machine Gun batteries - so must have had an interest/experience of motorcycles.