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8055Bell

War Hospital in Oldham?

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8055Bell

I'm looking at a plaque endowed for a Cot by the family of Sgt John and Lieut James Clegg from Grotton.  Their mother is listed as a War Hospital Supply Depot at her home address.  I assume this was in Oldham and wonder where the war hospital(s) may have been?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

Tim

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8055Bell

Wonderful. I now need work out which one was demolished recently 

Thanks

Tim

 

Edited by 8055Bell

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The Inspector

Hi Tim

Long shot

There is a Lt.James Clegg, 10th Bn Manchester Regt died 25.5.1915 and a Sjt  93 John Clegg, 1st/6th Bn Manchester Regt. died 4.6.15.both Helles memorial.

What other details do you have re their mother?

Regards Barry

They are the only two of 49 on the CWGC site with those names and ranks.!

Probate with will was granted 10.10.16 to Herbert Clegg, a cotton spinner, , Thornlee, GROTTON Road,Greenfield,Yorkshire ( Now Oldham, Lancs) death of Lt.James Clegg died 27.5.15 Alexandria, Egypt., 10th Bn Manchester Regt. Left £5082 13s. 5d....still looking

Edited by The Inspector

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ss002d6252

#93 Clegg has his effects paid to a Madeline Gertrude Hadley.

 

Lt Clegg to Herbert Clegg, esquire.
Capture.JPG

 

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252

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The Inspector

Hi All

Craig, no doubt you are looking at Sjt 93 John Clegg, died Gallipoli 4.6.15 address Thornlee Grotton, Nr. Oldham..  probate to spinster Mary Clegg £3713.11s.11d.

Tim I think we have cracked this one, There is a Thornlee Court at Grotton, perhaps this was the site of the original house?

Regards Barry

Madeline Gertrude Hadley died 1951 Birmingham, nee Melville was the wife of Harold William Hadley MSM 269611  A/CQMS 2/7 Kings Liverpool Regt. survived, died 1953 Bromsgrove, Worcestershire.

  

 

Edited by The Inspector

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The Inspector

Hi Tim

1911 census...You will find the family under the name John Edward Clegg, 62yrs born 1849, Oldham. address on the SCHEDULE (next page after census) is Thornlee, Grotton, a 10 roomed house.On the census form itself says just Grotton. James shown as 2 yrs old on transcript, census is 23.

Mary Clegg was the eldest child and James and John's sister.

Regards Barry

Father John Edward Clegg died 8.3.1912 address THORNLEA, Grotton,Saddleworth, Yorkshire (Oldham, Lancs) Probate to widow Alice Mary Clegg (married 1874 nee Whittaker), Herbert Clegg, cotton spinner, John Clegg ,solicitor (Lt.Clegg) Left £37952 13s. 3d........  and so to bed!!

Edited by The Inspector

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8055Bell

Thanks both,

To avoid repeating research, this is what I've gleaned up to now/

The photo shows a plaque that was saved during the demolition of a building by a salvage company from Hull.  I am the current custodian, having received the plaque from a member of the Great War Forum.  I’m endeavouring to find out the story behind the plaque and possibly find out where it was originally placed.  If anyone has more data on the brothers, I'd be delighted to see it.  Photos of them would be wonderful.
The plaque is made from stainless steel and measures @ 9” by 8”.  The ornate engraving  appears to indicate it was placed on a cot or bed, that was funded by the grieving mother and family of John and James Clegg.   The schedule of War Hospital Supply Depots shows Mrs Alice Mary Clegg was involved with hospital supplies as “4661 NEAR OLDHAM MRS J. E. CLEGG, THORNLEE, GROTTON”. The entry relates to her home address and Oldham may have been the location of the Hospital.
I have found John and James Clegg have no known resting place and are  commemorated on the Helles Memorial, Rossall School Memorial Chapel,  Rossall School Roll of Honour, St Mary’s Church, Oldham and St Anne’s Church, Lydgate.  They were sons of John Edward (Deceased) and Alice Mary Clegg (nee Whitaker) from Grotton.  Their father had been a cotton spinner at Mumps Mill, Rochdale (See Rochdale Observer 3/7/1916) and by 1911, the family had moved from Oldham to Grotton, near Saddleworth.  They loved at Hilltop House, Lydgate in 1915 and there were seven children in the family.
Sergeant John Clegg
John Clegg was born in Oldham in 1880 and baptised Christ Church, Glodwick on 4th March1880.  He was educated at Rossall School and employed as a Solicitor’s Managing Clerk in 1911.  James had enlisted as Private 7309 in the Oxford Light Infantry in 1900 aged 20 and later served in the 2nd Volunteer Battalion Manchester Regiment before it became the 6th (Territorial) Battalion.   James received the Territorial Efficiency Medal in 1911, with the Rank as Lance Sergeant. 
John  was promoted to Sergeant Regimental Number 93 in by the time embarked for Gallipoli on 5th May 1915.  
John was killed in action on 4th June 1915 during the third Battle of Krithia.  His family received £6 War Gratuity and John’s 1914-15 Star, but the British War Medal & Victory Medals were returned.   The sad news of John’s death was reported in the Lydgate Parish Magazine 
 “We are most unwilling to write anything that will harrow the feelings of those thus bereaved, but we cannot refrain from expressing the widespread and intense sympathy that was felt for Mrs Clegg and her family when it became known that Sergeant John Clegg had been killed in action in June.” The obituary described John as a solicitor and former Secretary of Diggle Rifle Club, who had also seen action during the Boer War of 1899-1902.
The Rochdale Observer reported John’s death in an obituary of  3rd July 1915.  This shows John worked at Messrs Jackson and Company Solicitors of Rochdale.
Lieutenant James Clegg
James Clegg was born in Oldham in 1887 and baptised in All Saint’s Goldwick that August. He was also educated at Rossall School where he is recorded on the 1901 Census return.   By 1911 Census records identify James as an engineer’s machine fitter, resident with his parents.  
James was Commissioned 2nd Lieutenant in 10th (Oldham) Territorial Battalion Manchester Regiment in London Gazette 15th  May 1914, which noted James was late Cadet Corporal, Rossall School Contingent, Junior Division, Officers Training Corps.
CWGC and SDGW state James Clegg was killed on 25th May 1915, whereas the Plaque indicates 27th May as the date of death. SDGW and the Rochdale Observer (3/6/1915) indicate he died of wounds and it was reported that his family were advised of their loss on 2nd June. John was twenty seven years old.  The Obituary recounted that James had stayed behind when his Battalion had left for Egypt, in charge of the Reserve Battalion at Bury.  The Army list shoes James and his cousin John Hamer Clegg as Lieutenants in 10th Bttn on 31st August 1914.
James left his Effects to his brother Herbert.  The Lydgate parish magazine of that July recalls that the Lieutenant was known as “Gentleman Jim” and served as a church officer at St Anne’s. “A bright, helpful and hopeful life has been cut short, but ‘he did what he could’ his duty to God and his neighbour and he died a brave man.” 

Thanks in anticipation
 

Modify message

 

IMG_2579.JPG

Edited by 8055Bell
Update JC

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8055Bell

Here's the shortlist of War Hospitals.  Hopefully a local Oldham expert will show up to tell use what these sites were / are. Work in progress

 

-Robertson Dormy House, Queen’s Road, Oldham  - Can't find among many large Victorian houses.  Near Abbey Hills Road below.

-Knoll Dormy House, Oldham  - Can't find
- Woodfield, Werneth, Oldham,Best candidate demolished Post 2011 and before Oct 2014 Council Report

The Woodfield Centre was sold by NHS Off Netherfield Close. Barton Kendall. Now vacant site.  Long distance from Clegg home on opposite side of Oldham

-Abbey Hills Road, Oldham.  Possibly site of modern housing development on S side of road, W of Mansfield Road??

- Saddleworth Red Cross Hospital, Ashway Gap, Greenfield, demolished 1980s - Local to Clegg home. Probably too long ago

-Wharmton Towers, Greenfield, Oldham.  Very local to Clegg's home, but Original property remains.   Possible partial redevelopment, between 2013-15.

Woodfield Centre Werneth.JPG

Edited by 8055Bell

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8055Bell
15 hours ago, The Inspector said:

Probate with will was granted 10.10.16 to Herbert Clegg, a cotton spinner, , Thornlee, GROTTON Road,Greenfield,Yorkshire ( Now Oldham, Lancs) death of Lt.James Clegg died 27.5.15 Alexandria, Egypt., 10th Bn Manchester Regt. Left £5082 13s. 5d....still looking

I've re-read the posts from both of you and picked up a repeat of the anomaly for the date of death.  CWGC and SDGW say 25th May in Gallipoli.  The plaque says 27th and now I can see the Probate says 27th May and he died in Alexandria.  I think I've seen strange reports for location of deaths before on Probate reports, but two sets of opposing sources seem strange. 

Is it possible his Battalion thought he was missing when he was evacuated?

Very strange

Tim

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ss002d6252

The war diary should help.

 

Craig

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ss002d6252

Lt Clegg was killed on 25th according to the Bde diary

Capture.JPG

 

If he'd died in Alexandria I don't think he'd have been commemorated on the Helles memorial ?

 

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252

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The Inspector

Hi Tim

Thanks for the update. Wharmton Towers is 1.4 miles from Grotton within walking distance, whereas Saddleworth Red Cross Hospital, Ashway Gap House (http://www.doveheritage.com/ashway-gap-house/ ) was on the moors 3.4 miles away. By 1915 Mrs.Clegg was a widow and transport would have been required to get to Ashway Gap House, now Dovestones Reservoir.

As the plaque was on a cot I suggest that Wharmton Towers is the most likely location. Would they have had a cot in a military hospital for wounded soldiers?

Wharmton was used to house Belgian refugees (See :- http://www.pixnet.co.uk/Oldham-hrg/World-War1/newspapers/pages/1914-09-Belgian-Refugees.html)  Also as the entry 4661 is included in the Yorkshire list I think you can discount all the others.....what do you think?

Regards Barry

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charlie2

Barry,

I agree to a point with your reasoning but I also agree with Tim that Woodfield is also a good possibility. We do not know when the plaque was donated but it must have been post 1915 and in my opinion probably post war. Woodfield was a maternity hospital which would make it a more suitable place for a cot. It would have been quite easy for Mrs Clegg to travel there in days gone by before the railway line was removed and the cuttings used as landfill sites. There was a train station at Grotton and the trains to Manchester stopped at Werneth which is only a few minutes walk to Woodfield. 

 

Charlie

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8055Bell

Thanks Both,

Wharmton Towers is certainly a good location for acess, but the main buidings are still very much there - and not from a demolished structure where the plaque is salvaged from.  The transport links seem logical and Charlie has already found Clegg family members in the Werneth area.

 

Does anyone know if the term "Cot" was regularly used in WWI hospitals?  Otherwise Charlie's maternity hospital in Werneth looks the best bet.

Tim

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charlie2

I think what also has to be born in mind, is that if someone has gone to the trouble and expense of obtaining such a plaque to commemorate fallen sons, they would want it placed in an established permanent hospital rather than in a temporary one.

 

Charlie

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The Inspector

Hi All

Tim, ? how do you know the demolition contractor was from Hull?

Regards Barry

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8055Bell

I picked up the plaque from a friend in E Yorks, who had received it recently from Ian Gawthorpe (E YORKS name on here), who in turn received it from a man who worked for a demolition contractor and lived in Hull.  We don't know which contractor, so we can't be sure it was Hull based, but likely.

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8055Bell

Woodfield was built as a private house. Pl can you look at The Knoll at Windsor Road, Werneth. Think this may be Knoll Dormy House - still there

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charlie2

Tim,

If there is any connection to Woodfield it would appear to be through Amy Clegg rather than the mother. Could Dormy be an abbreviation of Dormitory and The Knoll Dormitory House be the nurses home? Woodfield was on the road at the bottom of Werneth Park accessed from the A62 Manchester Rd. Frederick Street, where John Hamer Clegg lived, is the B6192. Windsor Rd is to the right and only a few minutes walk from Woodfield.

 

Has anyone tried to contact the person who found the plaque?

 

Charlie

 

 

IMG_0552.png

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The Inspector

Hi All

Been looking at Oldham Hulme Grammar, ww1 project. It would appear that the Knoll and Woodfield were separate hospitals as a number of  "Old Girls" joined both locations as Nurses, both are listed on the British Red Cross lists of aux. hospitals.

Regards Barry

On the 1911 census there is a nurse Elsie Jane Hewitt staying at The Hollies, Werneth. The occupier of the house has written "Hospital Nurse" in the relationship column and "Nurse from Nurses Home" in the occupation column. The enumerator hasn't altered it so I presume there must have been a nurses' home very close to the house. Perhaps the Dormy House does mean a dormitory! 

Edited by The Inspector

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