Royal Artillery cap badge types

[cadmaster]

Am I right in thinking that RA cap badges had rotating wheels for officers and fixed wheels for OR?

Was there any particular distinction between sliders and lugs - cap, side cap, beret?

Is there any way to tell the era of KC badges?

[Muerrisch]

I will assume that you said please, as is the norm on this forum. As is thank you.

 

As far as I am aware the answers are:

 

No

Pass

No

 

No doubt an expert will be along soon.

[cadmaster]

My apologies for neglecting the courtesies, I stand admonished.

[max7474]

OK this is the way it went:

 

ORs badges were issued with fixed wheels.

Originally k/c with 2 lugs.

RA Volunteers made in w/m with Volunteers replacing the ubique.

Then sliders following the ACD instructions for long vertical shanks to be used instead from 1903.

1906 they were shortened.

1908 the TF RA badges are introduced with laurel wreath instead of Ubique.  This lasted until 1916.

1916 the RA unpierced version (known as economy) is authorised.

1917 the unpopular unpierced are replaced by a pierced version with a wire strengthener to the crown.

There are unpierced versions also found with the wire.

Post WW1 they return to the 1906 version without the wire.

 

ORs badges are found with moving wheels.  These were not a sealed pattern but sold in canteens etc.

 

Come WW2 the collar badge is worn instead of the full sized badges by many regts esp. on berets and side caps but not always. C. 1947 the small gun 'beret' sized badge is adopted.

 

Edited 12 January , 2017 by max7474

[Muerrisch]

Thank you: I shall bank that information.

[Steven Broomfield]

15 hours ago, max7474 said:

 

 

ORs badges are found with moving wheels.  These were not a sealed pattern but sold in canteens etc.

 

 

So to state the perfectly bleedin' obvious, these were unofficial items? I never knew that: thanks.

[Guest]

21 hours ago, max7474 said:

OK this is the way it went:

ORs badges are found with moving wheels.  These were not a sealed pattern but sold in canteens etc.

 

 

Hugh King has an alternative view. K&K Vol 1 Page 222. Item 808.

Edited 13 January , 2017 by Guest

[max7474]

What it says actually agrees with what I have written about ORs abdges.

 

"In gilding metal.  Also in gilt and bronze, and with the wheel of the gun moving separately."

 

The ORs badges are the g/m ones.  The officers are the gilt and bz with/without the wheels.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, max7474 said:

What it says actually agrees with what I have written about ORs abdges.

 

"In gilding metal.  Also in gilt and bronze, and with the wheel of the gun moving separately."

 

The ORs badges are the g/m ones.  The officers are the gilt and bz with/without the wheels.

 

Personally I read this differently. It is just poorly written. There are lots of small errors in K&K where descriptions belie the real object. I have a Tower Hamlets Militia badge on my desk (QVC) that is from his collection that is incorrectly described. 

 

Hugh King's collection was largely built on original pattern badges. He bought most in a job lot from the manufacturer who produced and worked from the original patterns. While possible, I think it extremely unlikely that Kipling and King's work referenced 'shop' made badges that were only sold in canteens. Their work is widely regarded as definitive (despite the small errors). Hugh King's collection had largely been sold off in the past five years. I own a rather large part of his original collection.

 

I would be interested to understand the reasons why you believe that the two part badge was not a sealed pattern. Is there something one can refer to. 

 

MG

Edited 13 January , 2017 by Guest

[max7474]

Yes.  Go to the ACD records of sealed patterns at Kew.

 

Hugh King's book  has lots of errors in - there was no Tyneside Irish cap badge - it's a s/t.  etc etc etc. Since he assembled it official records are now in the public domain and has shown up his errors,

Edited 13 January , 2017 by max7474

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, max7474 said:

Yes.  Go to the ACD records of sealed patterns at Kew.

 

Thanks. So there are no sealed patterns for two piece gilding metal RA? Are you 100% certain? 

Edited 13 January , 2017 by Guest

[max7474]

I did not say that. 

 

The 1903, 06, 16, 17 and 47 (small gun)  patterns all had a fixed wheel.

 

You do find the 06 pattern (short slider and pierced) with moving wheel but not the others.  As I said these are not the official pattern.

 

 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, max7474 said:

I did not say that. 

 

The 1903, 06, 16, 17 and 47 (small gun)  patterns all had a fixed wheel.

 

You do find the 06 pattern (short slider and pierced) with moving wheel but not the others.  As I said these are not the official pattern.

 

 

 

OK. So is there any possibility that there might be a sealed pattern dated 5th March 1916... somewhere...... I ask simply because I am fairly certain one auction catalogue refers to this (one of my auction notes refers - Bosleys - but I didn't make note of the Auction date, so it could be any time in the last 20 years)  They may well be incorrect but in my experience in 50 years of collecting something always surprises. I have owned and do own a sealed pattern (not RA) so this is not exactly terra incognita. Never say never. I will try and dig up the reference but it will involve perusing well over 100 catalogues and may take some time. I'll stick my neck out; I think the two part was sealed. I would be happy to be proven wrong. We shall see. MG

Edited 13 January , 2017 by Guest

[Sepoy]

I certainly believe that the rotating wheel badges could be privately purchased by the Soldiers to replace the standard "flat" badges, whether it was from the canteen or local Military Tailors. I also understand that there are contemporary accounts stating this (unfortunately, I cannot recall where - damn memory).

Hugh King did have the pattern books etc for the Birmingham Badge Manufacturer Smith & Wright, but this was not the only source of his extensive collection. I spent many a happy hour viewing his collection in Farnham and just wish that digital cameras had been around to photograph them, especially his VTC badges.

To illustrate this thread here are a few of the badges discussed.

Sepoy

The standard issue Artillery cap badges worn by the Royal Horse Artillery; Royal Garrison Artillery and Royal Field Artillery. The excavated badge was found near Messines in 1976.
 

Edited 13 January , 2017 by Sepoy

[Sepoy]

Here is the "solid" economy issue Artillery cap badge and the Territorial example

[Sepoy]

This is an example of a Territorial Artillery Officer's service dress bronze cap badge. OSD badges had blades on the reverse rather than sliders.

Sepoy

 

NB Frustratingly, I have not scanned my examples of a Regular Artillery Officer's service dress bronze cap badge or the "rotating" Other ranks cap badge. I will add that task to my list of things to do

Edited 13 January , 2017 by Sepoy

[max7474]

20 hours ago, QGE said:

 

OK. So is there any possibility that there might be a sealed pattern dated 5th March 1916... somewhere...... I ask simply because I am fairly certain one auction catalogue refers to this (one of my auction notes refers - Bosleys - but I didn't make note of the Auction date, so it could be any time in the last 20 years)  They may well be incorrect but in my experience in 50 years of collecting something always surprises. I have owned and do own a sealed pattern (not RA) so this is not exactly terra incognita. Never say never. I will try and dig up the reference but it will involve perusing well over 100 catalogues and may take some time. I'll stick my neck out; I think the two part was sealed. I would be happy to be proven wrong. We shall see. MG

 

Records show that sealed pattern cards were not issued for the 1916 measures to speed up production by making some bi-metal cap badges in single metal or unpierced.  Instead labels were  to be attached to existing cards specifying the economy measure which would be removed when the measure was receded.. 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, max7474 said:

 

Records show that sealed pattern cards were not issued for the 1916 measures to speed up production by making some bi-metal cap badges in single metal or unpierced.  Instead labels were  to be attached to existing cards specifying the economy measure which would be removed when the measure was receded.. 

 

I am sure you are right. The auctioneers probably got it wrong. MG

[max7474]

The first was the 'unpierced' RA badge was authorised in  August 1916. 

The crown was meant to remain pierced, but there are lots of examples with a 'solid' crown.

These badges were officially made obsolete in November of that year. There are, of course, thousands of these about and it is possible that production did continue.
 

[170gunner]

Hi I am new to the forum and require some advise please.   My interest is collecting to the Royal Artillery   I have just acquired a Royal Artillery Militia cap badge but am doubtful if it genuine.  Any advise would be most welcome.

 

 

[pbrydon]

Cadmaster,

 

 As your interest extends beyond the period of the Great War, it might be worth looking at threads and  albums on Royal Artillery badges on the British and Commonwealth Military Badge Forum:

 

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/

 

I can pretty well guarantee that you wont be admonished if you dont say please in your first post.

 

P.B.

Edited 1 July , 2017 by pbrydon

[170gunner]

1 hour ago, pbrydon said:

Cadmaster,

 

 As your interest extends beyond the period of the Great War, it might be worth looking at threads and  albums on Royal Artillery badges on the British and Commonwealth Military Badge Forum:

 

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/

 

I can pretty well guarantee that you wont be admonished if you dont say please in your first post.

 

P.B.

Thank you for your advice but I did say please in my comment.

[pioneecorps]

On 30/06/2017 at 22:40, 170gunner said:

Hi I am new to the forum and require some advise please.   My interest is collecting to the Royal Artillery   I have just acquired a Royal Artillery Militia cap badge but am doubtful if it genuine.  Any advise would be most welcome.

Hello 170gunner

 

The Militia one I have, has the slider with fixed wheel, I am no expert on cap badges but I would say yours is correct and the one I have a repro, the only Artillery cap badge with a gun in my collection that I don't have is the plastic? one, I have stopped collecting badges many years ago.

 

Gerwyn

[Jerry B]

On 01/07/2017 at 17:58, 170gunner said:

Thank you for your advice but I did say please in my comment.

 

 

He was not replying to you but to the original thread starter who did not it seems.

[170gunner]

On 12/01/2017 at 08:56, max7474 said:

OK this is the way it went:

 

ORs badges were issued with fixed wheels.

Originally k/c with 2 lugs.

RA Volunteers made in w/m with Volunteers replacing the ubique.

Then sliders following the ACD instructions for long vertical shanks to be used instead from 1903.

1906 they were shortened.

1908 the TF RA badges are introduced with laurel wreath instead of Ubique.  This lasted until 1916.

1916 the RA unpierced version (known as economy) is authorised.

1917 the unpopular unpierced are replaced by a pierced version with a wire strengthener to the crown.

There are unpierced versions also found with the wir

Post WW1 they return to the 1906 version without the wire.

 

ORs badges are found with moving wheels.  These were not a sealed pattern but sold in canteens etc.

 

Come WW2 the collar badge is worn instead of the full sized badges by many regts esp. on berets and side caps but not always. C. 1947 the small gun 'beret' sized badge is adopted.

 

Would you happen to know the length of the long vertical shank and if so could you please advise.