German 24cm Shell Help

[Guest DrakeM]

Hello,

 

I am trying to find out more information about this piece of Trench Art. I know that it is a German 24cm casing, and was made in Berndorf, Austria in 1900 (as the markings on the bottom indicate). There is also a small crown marking near the center-right. I'm not too sure what this means. There are markings near the edge indicating that this casing was fired multiple times by the German Military (the "S") from what I have found at least. On the decorated part of the casing is the word "Bertha" which I'm assuming is in reference to "Big Bertha". Through my research I have found that the actual "Big Bertha" was a 42cm howitzer, however many people referred to large German weapons as such. It also has "1918" on it which could indicate as to when that shell was used or when that soldier served in battle. I believe that the original weapons system that fired this casing was the 24cm SK/L40 Theodor Karl which originated from decommissioned German ships such as: Kaiser Friderich III and Wittlesbach. These weapons were taken off the ships to be put on rail to be used on land some weapons went to the coastal front, some to the Western Front. I have also read that the "Paris Gun" was rebored to 23.8cm which is the exact technical size of the 24cm. The original casing would have been 103cm (40.62") tall, but is shorter due to the work done on it. Could it be possible that this casing was fired with the Paris Gun? I was wondering if there was anyone out there who can help me to identify more about this piece or if I'm correct about any of this information. I have included some pictures of the casing and markings for reference.

 

Thanks

[MikB]

The Paris Guns started off as 21cm calibre - barrels were bored and rerifled at 24cm when they wore out after 60 rounds.

 

The whole project was extremely idiosyncratic and required many specifically-developed components. Although it's possible that a case manufactured in 1900 could've figured in that, I'd guess it's more likely something specific would be needed to handle the unusual internal ballistics of these guns.

[trajan]

A rather nice piece that! I suspect that the crown is part of the inspector's mark.

[trenchtrotter]

I think Im in the minority. I dislike most "trench art" including this piece. Just me, we are all different.

 

TT

[Gunner Bailey]

Not quite TT.

 

I like trench art if it is well done.

 

This looks like a monster, though some will be attracted by that alone.

 

Possibly unique. I've never seem one of these.

 

John

[GWF1967]

2 hours ago, trenchtrotter said:

I think Im in the minority. I dislike most "trench art" including this piece. Just me, we are all different.

 

TT

Whilst not a fan of "Ypres" letter openers I do appreciate the metalworking skills used to make a piece like this. 

[MikB]

Let me guess that a (probably) French trench art maker came by a German 24 cm case by whatever means, and sought to big up the significance and possibly value of the piece by associating it with the Paris Gun - frequently known as 'Bertha' in France.

 

There are certainly metalworking skills involved in making a piece like this. Whether it has any artistic or aesthetic merit is a matter of taste and  - to some extent - fashion. As far as historical merit is concerned, such pieces tend generally to confuse and delete, rather than enhance, evidence. So I'm mostly with TT, but can't help a sneaky feeling of being impressed by the boldness and technique of the work, even if I think it's as ugly as sin...  

[trajan]

49 minutes ago, MikB said:

... but can't help a sneaky feeling of being impressed by the boldness and technique of the work, even if I think it's as ugly as sin...  

 

All valid points there, although worth pointing out that things like this do preserve evidence in a way as otherwise it would have been melted down and the details on the base lost to prosperity! And while "I don't know much about art, I know what I like", this does fall into that category of "ugly as sin" - but I admire it for the same reasons as you! Would I buy it if I saw it on sale? Probably yes, if  reasonable price, ignoring the attribution to one or other 'Big Bertha'.

[assafx]

what an interesting and rare find.

 

Another thing to think of, is that the "1918" and "Bertha" were made for marketing.

We don't know if it was made as a souvenir by a soldier, who found a case near the Paris gun and made it for himself.

on the other hand, it could be a professional maker who had the right Caliber and used it to promote sales. 

Wolfgang Fleischer has a tiny book about German artillery. he is mentioning 12 batteries of Theodor Karl type on the front in October 1918.

i think that this is the more probable case but as usual with finds, it s all a matter of how you interpret the find.

 

Assaf

[Old Tom]

I am sure that this has been said before. However, while the term 'trench art' is widely used I think this piece would have needed the facilities of a substantial workshop. Does anyone know where such items were made and if the producer was operating a commercial business.

[trajan]

I'm afraid that we'll just have to accept the established term of 'Trench Art', just as we have to accept the name 'Hittite' wrongly given to the Neshite language...

[assafx]

1 hour ago, Old Tom said:

I am sure that this has been said before. However, while the term 'trench art' is widely used I think this piece would have needed the facilities of a substantial workshop. Does anyone know where such items were made and if the producer was operating a commercial business.

the only book i read about the subject is this: Saunders, Nicholas J. Trench Art: Materialities and Memories of War. New York, NY: New York, 2003.

I found it to be very informative. he discusses the "ironic shell" and the industry behinds battlefield tourists.

The term is widely used because its easier to put such a wide subject, with many variables, into two words. so Trajan is right...

 

Assaf

 

 

[Michael Haselgrove]

This entry in Wikipedia of interest:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_art 

Michael.

[Old Tom]

Thank you all.  I suppose the number of cases used for this purpose was very small compared with the number of cases fired, although many of these were recycled and the importance of salvage was always stressed. Again I suppose the numbers  items of trench art was in the thousands while the number of cases was in the millions. 

[CharlieBris]

Unlikely to have been a cartridge for the Paris Kanone - the cartridges for these guns were 1.25m long - http://landships.info/landships/artillery_articles.html?load=/landships/artillery_articles/Paris_Kanone.html. The 24cm ex-naval guns used a cartridge which was a little over 1.03m long - this corresponds with your

estimate of the original cartridge length - http://www.kaisersbunker.com/cc/cc12.htm

 

Regards,

Charlie

 

[bob lembke]

My grand-father worked with the 42 cm howitzers and 30.5 cm mortars in 1914 and 1915, he was a Technical Officer in the Generalkommando of III. RK supplying the very special ammunition for these guns, and later worked in ammunition manufacture and inspection. There is family chatter that he also later was involved in the very secret "Paris Gun" project, and I have studied that project as well.

 

Be assured that this casing had nothing to do with the Paris Gun. They were not about to use a shell casing from 1900 for this purpose. The chamber pressures in the Paris Gun were astonishing, and measured by an instrument in the chamber for every shot, so that the powder charge for the next shot could be computed. Plus the chamber probably was 21 cm re: the original guns.

 

There also were 24.5 cm mortars in the German establishment, but I imagine their shell casings were much shorter.

 

I agree that "Bertha" was probably added for sales appeal. Dicke Berta was in "honor" of Bertha Krupp, owner of the firm, I believe, who I think was rather slender, and was probably being slandered. I have a fascinating narrative from a "Big Bertha" battery commander who at the start of the Great War went to the Krupp factory to pick up his two guns, and had dinner at the Krupp mansion, and was seated with Bertha Krupp. Going off to war in style. The guns were at the factory for some needed modifications, which were rushed thru as the war started.

Edited 20 January , 2017 by bob lembke
complete text

[David Filsell]

A terrific piece of Art Deco work and design, quite the best I have seen

[trajan]

On 1/15/2017 at 15:16, assafx said:

the only book i read about the subject is this: Saunders, Nicholas J. Trench Art: Materialities and Memories of War. New York, NY: New York, 2003.

 

Just out of interest, does it mention the use of shell cases for 'trench art' prior to WW1? My reason for asking is that yesterday I saw two German shell cases, Dusseldorf origin, and dated 1910(?) and 1912, both with 'fluted' lower sections, and decorated to celebrate the Greek victory in the First Balkan War,1912-1913 - not for sale, though... 

[bob lembke]

I tried to quote the first two sentences in the first post, but the original post was created in such a way as to make that difficult. 

 

I believe that it said that "a German shell casing made in Bernsdorff, Austria". As we have been trying to puzzle the provenance of this piece out, let's get the basics down. That sentence seems contradictory. I have studied German Great War artillery a lot, Austrian less, and they largely had different models and designs of artillery pieces. That statement should be rejected unless there is specific evidence for it. 

 

Also, if the casing was made in 1900 it most likely would have been "used up" early in the war, unless for some exotic gun not used much. I was reading a book about the activity of a large caliber German battery, by the battery commander, and it stated that their practice was to try to fire the same powder casing 20 times before returning for refurbishment or metal recycling. 

[kz11gr]

On 11/01/2017 at 20:53, Guest DrakeM said:

Hello,

 

I am trying to find out more information about this piece of Trench Art. I know that it is a German 24cm casing, and was made in Berndorf, Austria in 1900 (as the markings on the bottom indicate). 

Thanks

 

Hi, all 

Uncommon case. i have a question :  you say that the caliber is 24 cm . Where did you measure the diameter ?

Thank you.

[AndyBsk]

Unfortunally no visible stamps on bottom but Berndorf 1900 speaks for austrian gun, possible even sea or ship, anyway no link to Big Bertha. The artifical changes to case has no link to real gun used with this ammo.

[AOK4]

This topic was started by a former member 5 years ago...

[kz11gr]

11 hours ago, AOK4 said:

This topic was started by a former member 5 years ago...

A cold case ..

[Chasemuseum]

On 21/01/2017 at 05:40, David Filsell said:

A terrific piece of Art Deco work and design, quite the best I have seen

An interesting old thread worth revisiting. 

For kz11gr's question, the 24cm is the nominal calibre of the gun that fired the case. For most fixed case ammunition this will be roughly the diameter of the top of the shell case (open end) when the case is in it's original format (not reworked as trench art). This started life as a naval artillery shell, as a fixed case munition, and would have had the sides as roughly parallel with a slight taper, so that the diameter at the base would be about 25cm. If you do a search through Imperial German warships of the late 1890s you will find examples of ships with 24cm guns as their primary armaments such as the Kaiser Frederich III class battleships and the Wittelsbach class battleships, Furst Bismarck class cruiser, Prinz Heinrich class cruiser. This will give a dozen ships carrying the gun that used this shell case.

 

Certainly it has no direct relationship to the Paris Gun.

 

The metal working facilities required to produce this item of trench art, would not have been available to soldiers in the field or in base workshops during wartime. Some elaborate "trench art" was fabricated in base workshops after the armistice in the months after the war when personnel were under utilized prior to being demobilzed but this item was most probably produced in a civilian workshop after the war. In the 1920s there was a big market in supplying the battlefield tourist market. My grand-parents with my teenage mother did the big trip "home" in the mid 20s and included the tour of Ypres and Somme as part of the holiday - including taking a commercial flight from Paris to London.

 

Is it Art Deco ?  Initially I thought not, but looking at it, and thinking what it would have looked like as a new piece of "art", highly polished on the outer ribs and probably chemically blackened in relief, yes it would have captured the Art Deco style quite well with long lightly curved lines making a dominant statement against the black relief, exploding in a spherical crown. Sympathetically restored it could recapture its original grandeur and would be a magnificent holder for a concealed flower vase at the base of a grand staircase. 

 

Although as it presents at the moment, I agree its as ugly as sin.

 

[Shell case collector]

This shell case is Austro-Hungarian navy or coastal defense. I see the "crown" which is the Austro-Hungarian acceptance mark. I also see the many "S" which is seen on Austro-Hungarian navy shell cases and probably is a re-load mark. Originally I suspect this is a 24 cm L/40 and the original shell case should measure 248x1032R275.