What uniform is Cpl Stump wearing?

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Acknown said:

Peter,

Thank you, I'm most grateful. The personal details are accurate (Berkeley etc), but Percy did not serve before the war. He joined up in 1914 (see photo in my first post) but not the RI Regt. The cap badge seems to be 4th Hussars and I suspect he was drafted from there to the RI Regt before deploying in 1915. As the 4th was in The Curragh in 1914, I wonder if he had any Irish connection? Not known to the family. Could the 8404 be his original 4th Hussars number? He seems to have retained it.

Acknown

So which particular part of the Royal Irish Regiment was he discharged from according to a) the Silver War Badge Roll b) the pension ledger card?
What units is he shown serving with on the Victory Medal & British War Medal Roll?

2 hours ago, Acknown said:

Could the 8404 be his original 4th Hussars number?

On his transfer to the Royal Irish Regiment his number would have changed. Even if he had gone to a wartime only battalion of the Regiment and they were using a prefix, it would still be unlikely thant any one Battalion got up to it's 8 thousand 4 hundred and fourth member. Even taken together the 5th and 6th wartime service battalions that came into existance in August \ September 1914 are unlikely to have got that far. (7th and 8th came much later and so don't fit the time frame).

According to Paul Nixon - "When Britain went to war with Germany a few months later, the Royal Irish Regiment started a new series from 1 for war-time service enlistments joining the newly forming service battalions. Men who, during war-time wanted to enlist for regular terms of service, were given numbers from the series above. Thus, for example, 11042 was a regular enlistment in January 1915, whilst men joining the 5th and 6th service battalions at this time were being given numbers in the 25** and 26** range."
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/08/royal-irish-regiment-1st-2nd-battalions.html

As to whether it was his original Hussars number, turning to Pauls' site again, all the Hussars Regiment issued their own service numbers until December 1906, after which service numbering was done at a Corps of Hussars level

4th Hussars didn't get as far as 8404 between 1881 and 1906. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2012/12/4th-queens-own-hussars-1881-1906.html
The Corps of Hussars started from number 1 and would have issued service number 8404 at some point between the 8th January 1912, (8146) and the 25th May 1912, (8837). So again a pre-war number.

So I put me thinking cap on and tried another approach - using Geoff's search engine to check men of the Royal Irish Regiment who are listed on CWGC with a service number including "84" and then cross-referencing them to the "formerly" information on Soldiers Died in the Great War. Most of the matches were clearly pre-war regulars who died serving with the 1st or 2nd Battalion before the end of 1915 and so I didn't check SDGW..

But I did find:-

3/8479 Lance Corporal J.T. Batteley, 7th (South Irish Horse) Battalion, died 21st March 1918, France - John Thomas Baddeley Killed in Action formerly 22762 Hussars.  MiC shows landed in France 26th July 1915. FMP showing service records for him dating from 1914. Don't subscribe to that or Ancestry, so can't check the details. Indexed in familysearch as 10th Hussars and 3rd Battalion Royal Irish Regiment.
8438 Corporal Gerald Moore, 6th Battalion, died 7th June 1917, Belgium - Gerald Moore Died of Wounds 18192 Hussars. MiC shows Victory Medal and British War Medal only. FMP have what is probably a one page indexed again 3/8438 for Gerald Moore - although may be more as the equivalent record index on familysearch dates his service to 1914 and refers to the Hussars and the Royal Irish Regiment..

So possibly they had a 3/ prefix, although likely to be dropped on MiC's and the like. A quick run through the MiC record in the National Archive catalogue shows a number of instances of two matches for each 84xx four digit number, so a search between 8404 and 8479 may turn up more ex-Hussars with surviving serving records.

Given the the 4th Hussars went to France in August 1914, Percy won't have trained with them, let along have been deployed with them. He was probably posted to an Irish cavalry depot and was part of a group that was subsequently compulsory transferred to the Royal Irish Regiment.

Hope that's not too many red herrings.

Cheers,
Peter

Edit - looks like @travers61 beat me to it

Edited 24 January , 2023 by PRC

[FROGSMILE]

Definitely a 4th Hussars soldier and quite a good quality image I think.

His transfer is I feel a reflection of the need to find battle casualty replacements for the Irish regiments without the mechanical benefit of conscription in Ireland.

Edited 25 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Acknown]

Thank you all - great stuff. I'll be back on it tomorrow.

Acknown

[travers61]

Some near number surviving service records on ancestry.

 

3/8468 Ernest George KITCHEN, joined Hussars of the Line 9.9.1914 as 22904, to 10th Reserve Regiment 15.9.1914, to 3rd RIR 2.6.1915, to 1st RIR 5.7.1915.  To BEF 5.7.915

 

3/8488 KEEGAN, Arthur James, enlisted  at Bristol as no 16173 G S Cavalry 31.8.1914, posted to Southern Cavalry Depot 1.9.1914, then 10th Res. Cav Regt 10.9.1914, the 3rd Bn RIR 2.6.1915, then  2nd RIR 14.6.1915, with BEF from 14.6.1915.

Both men's records show this as the authority for the transfer to the RIR.

 

 

The draft to the RIR must have been quite large as service records survive for:

3/8634  John TANNER, joined Hussars of the Line 2.9.1914 attested Dublin,  to Depot same day, to 10th Reserve Regt 3.9.1916, to 3rd RIR 2.6.1916, to 2nd RIR & BEF 14.6.1915.

3/8549 Arthur Kirby ARCHER, joined Hussars of the Line as 13208, born and resident Derby, prev employer Midland Railway, Derby. arrived Dublin 8.9.1914, dental treatment at The Curragh Nov 1914, embarked 15.6.1914, joined Battalion 18.6.1915

 

Travers

 

 

 

Edited 24 January , 2023 by travers61

[Acknown]

17 hours ago, travers61 said:

I was not surprised to see men transferred from cavalry to infantry this early in the war

Travers - Thanks. So his passage from Berkeley to the Hussars to the RI Regt is plausible, given the experience of others. Thanks also for the CWGC trawl. His number is consistent with others who may have joined the RI Regt in 1914/15. However, having looked up those numbers in service records, those that show a result are for other men who joined in the early 1900s. Could the numbers have been reused? Were they specific to a battalion? 

Acknown

Edited 25 January , 2023 by Acknown

[TEW]

I haven't read though the whole topic but I did note that a casualty list for him seems to be absent.

There is an entry via TheGenealogist:

16/10/16. Stump, J. 8404 Royal Irish Regiment, L/Sgt.

The above site has transcribed the entry as Stumo with R I Rifles. Regiment is written R Ir R but the next column has a list for the rifles so his must be regiment.

Apologies if this is old news.

TEW

[PRC]

The men who went from the Hussars to the Royal Irish Regiment would have had the prefix 3/ in front of their four digit number, in part to distinguish them from the pre-war Regular Army enlistments. After all at the outbreak of the war in theory the 3rd Battalion would be providing drafts to the 1st and 2nd Battalions in the field, and so there would be the possibility of having two men with the same service number serving in the same battalion.

Unfortunately when it comes to MiCs and the related service medal rolls, it's hit and miss as to whether the 3/ is shown or not - as you have found with Percy Stump. As far as the Royal Irish Regiment is concerned he's not unique in the absence of the prefix. And if they are anything like the surviving Norfolk Regiment service records, it can often be hard to find the use of the prefix in the day to day admin.

Cheers,
Peter

[Acknown]

4 minutes ago, TEW said:

Apologies if this is old news.

TEW - its new news! Many thanks. Is that the date of wounding or a later casualty report?

Acknown

[Acknown]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

The men who went from the Hussars to the Royal Irish Regiment would have had the prefix 3/ in front of their four digit number, in part to distinguish them from the pre-war Regular Army enlistments. After all at the outbreak of the war in theory the 3rd Battalion would be providing drafts to the 1st and 2nd Battalions in the field, and so there would be the possibility of having two men with the same service number serving in the same battalion.

Peter - Thanks again. This makes it likely that having posed for his photo in his smart 4th Hussars uniform, he actually trained with 3/R Irish Regt. Would you agree?

Acknown

[TEW]

It's the date of publication in The Times. There's no earlier 'Report Received' date or home town.

TEW

[Acknown]

18 hours ago, PRC said:

So which particular part of the Royal Irish Regiment was he discharged from according to a) the Silver War Badge Roll b) the pension ledger card?
What units is he shown serving with on the Victory Medal & British War Medal Roll?

Thanks Peter. 

• SWB - No battalion. Number prefixed: 3/8404. 
• PLCs - No battalion. 
• MIC and 14/15 Star Roll - no battalion.
• VM and BWM Rolls - 2/R IRegt.

I have trawled through service records and all the 8***s that I could find joined pre-war. E.g. 8418 Patrick Murphy joined in 1904.

Everyone - I'm very grateful for all your input. As a result, I'm going with this:

• Percy enlisted 01 Sep 14, presumably into 4th Hussars with a NK number. He may have trained at 2 (Irish) Cavalry Depot or with 3/RI Regt, both located at Richmond Barracks in Dublin (hence the transfer to 3/RI Regt is logical). Anyway, he transferred to the RI Regt before 19 Jul 15, when he arrived in France. 2/RI Regt received 259 OR reinforcements in Jul 15.
• He served with the battalion on the Somme (Mametz Wood - 04 Jul, Bazentin Ridge - 14 Jul, Guillemont - 03 Sep).
• On 14 Oct, the battalion transferred to the 49th Brigade, 16th (Irish) Division and moved to Kemmel (south of Ypres). But Percy was reported as wounded on 16 Oct. It seems likely that this was before the move and the last casualties before that were at PLOEGSTEERT on 04 and 06 Oct.
• As I have already mentioned, according to Percy, he lay in no man's land for days until someone saw signs of movement and went out to drag him in, the rescuer being charged for endangering himself for his trouble. He bore several bullet scars for the rest of his life, indicating that may have been hit by a burst of MG fire. So he may have been on a working party in the open, or may have been on an attack or raid. The battalion received over 200 casualties during the attack on GINCHY on 03 Sep 16. I am tempted to think that Percy was one of them if the casualty report publication fits.

Still grateful for any further comments.

Acknown

Addition: If he was wounded in Sep 16, he may well have recovered and returned to duty before being diagnosed with DAH and discharged on 01 Jul 17. Comments?

Edited 25 January , 2023 by Acknown

[PRC]

43 minutes ago, Acknown said:

Peter - Thanks again. This makes it likely that having posed for his photo in his smart 4th Hussars uniform, he actually trained with 3/R Irish Regt. Would you agree?

I thought it had been identified by @travers61 that the bulk transfer took place on the 2nd June 1915.  I don't have access to Ancestry \ FindMyPast to check it out but between he and me  it looks like several other surviving service records for the men from this batch of compulsory transfers have been identified. Hopefully between them it will firm up that they were at the Cavalry Depot - and so by implication probably remained badged to the 4th Hussars.

Perhaps one small addition to the timeline. Married his girlfriend most likely while on embarkation leave - 10th July 1915.

Cheers,
Peter

[brianmorris547]

Acknown

I'm still going through the Times for a wound in July to September 1916, not having much luck though. There is a large list of Royal Irish Regt wounded in the Times OCL 26/07/1916, 132 names but only dribs and drabs after that and I'm up to 25/09.

When I read that he lay out in the cold I looked at the WD for when the Bn transferred to 16 Div in October 1916. I am researching the lists anyway looking for REs so will keep on.

Brian

[Acknown]

3 hours ago, PRC said:

I thought it had been identified by @travers61 that the bulk transfer took place on the 2nd June 1915. 

Peter - Missed that, thanks.

3 hours ago, PRC said:

Married his girlfriend most likely while on embarkation leave - 10th July 1915.

Peter - Good point, thanks again. 

29 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said:

I am researching the lists anyway looking for REs so will keep on.

Brian - Thank you, very kind. Where do you find these lists?

Acknown

[brianmorris547]

2 hours ago, Acknown said:

 

Brian - Thank you, very kind. Where do you find these lists?

Acknown

Times Digital Archive, which I access with my Lancashire Libraries Card.

Brian

[Acknown]

On 25/01/2023 at 19:18, brianmorris547 said:

Times Digital Archive, which I access with my Lancashire Libraries Card.

Brian - Thanks again, I also have a library card and presume I have to go to the library to log on. But, on 04 Oct 16, Lt N Curran MC 2/RI Regt led a patrol that was contacted by the enemy. Curran was killed and two men were wounded. One man was missing and it's tempting to think this was Percy. Would the time frame fit (wounded 04 Oct, recovered a day or so later, in Times casualty list 16 Oct)? Also, if you have time, there should be a big list of 2/RI Regt killed and wounded after the attack on Ginchy on 03 Sep. Are they reported in the Times in Sep, with only a few in Oct, or are they reported in Oct?

Acknown

[brianmorris547]

Acknown

I access the Times Digital Archive without going to the library, although I can get it if I go there. Does your library have the Times in it's digital library.

I'm about to start on October 1916 and I note the above.

I tried to search using the term "Stump" in the British Newspaper Library via FMP to see if I could find a report of his wound. There were thousands of hits but usually about tree stumps.

Cheers

Brian

[Acknown]

5 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said:

but usually about tree stumps.

Or cricket stumps, or teeth stumps!

Acknown

[brianmorris547]

The Bn moved to 16 Div in October 1916 and took part in a bombing raid at the end of that month. I checked the OCLs for December 1916 as well with no result.

Brian

[brianmorris547]

On 25/01/2023 at 11:55, TEW said:

I haven't read though the whole topic but I did note that a casualty list for him seems to be absent.

There is an entry via TheGenealogist:

16/10/16. Stump, J. 8404 Royal Irish Regiment, L/Sgt.

The above site has transcribed the entry as Stumo with R I Rifles. Regiment is written R Ir R but the next column has a list for the rifles so his must be regiment.

Apologies if this is old news.

TEW

Thanks TEW.

I was hoping someone might come in with the G.

There is a large list of R Irish Regt wounded (133 names) in the Times 06/10/1916 but P Stump is shown in a very large list of Royal Irish Regt wounded in the Times 16/10/1916. At least 200/300 names. The narratives of 22 Infantry Brigade that I referred to in the "Casualty Lists" thread would indicate that these two lists are for the Ops in July - September 1916.

The List on 16/10 is R Irish R which is Regt. The Rifles are shown as R or Royal Irish Rif and the Fusiliers as R or Royal Irish Fus.

Brian

Courtesy Times Digital Archive.

Edited 27 January , 2023 by brianmorris547
typo

[Acknown]

7 hours ago, Acknown said:

But, on 04 Oct 16, Lt N Curran MC 2/RI Regt led a patrol that was contacted by the enemy. Curran was killed and two men were wounded. One man was missing and it's tempting to think this was Percy.

26 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said:

The narratives of 22 Infantry Brigade that I referred to in the "Casualty Lists" thread would indicate that these two lists are for the Ops in July - September 1916.

Brian - Many thanks yet again. Thus, it is more likely that Percy was wounded on 03 Sep during Ginchy, but conceivable that he was wounded in early Oct. I suspect that's as far as we'll get. I have searched the BNA again without success and cannot find a notice, nor is there an obituary (d. 1972). No missing entry on ICRC records either.

Acknown

Addition: No casualty lists in 21 or 22 Bde FA WDs either.

Edited 27 January , 2023 by Acknown

[brianmorris547]

Acknown

I would rule out him being wounded in October. The general rule is that it took four to six weeks from the event to the OCL. My RE gf was wounded in early September 1916, at Guillemont I believe, and he was in the Times OCL 11/10/1916.

The 22 Infantry Brigade narratives are in the WD of 7 Div HQ GS. On Ancestry Piece 1631 p 44 for 01 to 05/07 with 158 wounded, p 80 for 10 to 20/07 with 208 wounded and p 510 for the Ops in early September with 129 wounded. So the Bn had over 450 wounded between July and September. 

The OCLs will not just be for 2 Bn but for all Bns of the Regt. I suspect most will be 2 Bn though. 

Brian

[Acknown]

Brian - Thanks. As there were no casualties reported later in Sep 16, I will assume he was amongst the GINCHY wounded.

Thank you very much for all your assistance in this interesting quest.

Acknown

[Acknown]

The tale of Percy Stump is all but concluded, as far as we are ever likely to know it. But here's a photo of him convalescing - he was a Lance Sergeant. I do not know where he was treated after his wounding on 03 Sep 16 (we think), or whether he recovered in time to re-join his battalion before he was invalided out with DAH on 01 Jul 17 - I suspect not. However, was the photo likely to be have been taken in the UK? Do the greatcoats help us? I spot a Gunner on the left, anyone detect the other two cap badges?

Again, all comments gratefully received. Thanks.

Acknown

Edited 29 January , 2023 by Acknown

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, Acknown said:

The tale of Percy Stump is all but concluded, as far as we are ever likely to know it. But here's a photo of him convalescing - he was a Lance Sergeant. I do not know where he was treated after his wounding on 03 Sep 16 (we think), or whether he recovered in time to re-join his battalion before he was invalided out with DAH on 01 Jul 17 - I suspect not. However, was the photo likely to be have been taken in the UK? Do the greatcoats help us? I spot a Gunner on the left, anyone detect the other two cap badges?

Again, all comments gratefully received. Thanks.

Acknown

That’s a really fine photo and useful to me because it shows the correct regulatory wear of greatcoats when donned over hospital blue, in that they were to be distinguished by a hospital blue armband on the upper left arm.  I would like to retain an illustrative copy please, if that’s okay?

Edited 29 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE