Canadians at Brookwood

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Went out to Brookwood Military Cemetry this morning and I was urprised at the number of Newfoundlanders & Canadians buried there. As with all CWGC cemetries the place was immaculate and the area dedicated to these men is surrounded by maple trees, which in the Autumn/Fall no doubt form a carpet over the graves.

Very moving..........................

Ian

[Broznitsky]

Do you happen to remember which battalions or date of deaths were present? Just wondering if they were from a particular battle?

[Bob Coulson]

I guess you are probably aware, but if not, go to the CWGC website and click on publications and then on Brookwood - excellent information sheet which can be printed off.

Bob.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Peter - Sorry, I was not there to take notes!

Bob - Many thanks. I will certainly visit the site.

Ian

[paul guthrie]

There are over 400 US WW1 there also. Seem to be more Canadians than other Empire men, must have been a Canadian hospital nearby. I know there was one at Bromley, Kent but do not know if that's close. Also a number, 28 or so, US pilots from Eagle Squadron RAF WW2. Also Polish , Czech, Belgian and Dutch plots. All Czech I saw are RAF.

Interesting is a WW2 Turkish plot away from the others. Turkey did enter the war but at the very end. Several of these airmen graves say man was killed flying but one says killed by the Germans while flying when they were not in the war, there is a good story there.

There are 8 or so VC burials there most or all not in the military section. Dame Rebecca West is there.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Paul,

Bromley is a bit of a trek (by UK terms!). There was a hospital which housed a large number of Canadians at Chertsey, it is now St Peter's Hospital, which is the other side of Woking. I remember going there as a kid in the 1970s and it had not changed much then!

During both World Wars there were large encampments of Canadians all over the West Surrey area and there is the monument to the Canadians down the A3 main road near Bordon Army Camp.

The local area had a strong relationship with the Canadians during both world wars of which it is extremely proud, and is probably why the Canadian graves are always decorated with flowers and poppies come 11 November.

Ian

[Hedley Malloch]

... (snip)

Interesting is a WW2 Turkish plot away from the others. Turkey did enter the war but at the very end. Several of these airmen graves say man was killed flying but one says killed by the Germans while flying when they were not in the war, there is a good story there. ... (snip)

Turkey was neutral during WW2 unitl the closing days of the war but always had a benign attitude towards the allies.

I taught in Turkey for a couple years. Some of my students used to go to the UK in the summer, stay with a family and improve their English. Most hosts not unreasonably charged for board and lodging, but one of my students stayed with a family in the Bristol area for six weeks and the family would not accept a penny. The reason was that the head of the family had been an RAF pilot during WW2 and had been shot down by the Germans into the Aegean. He was picked up, in a bad way, by the Turkish navy, nursed back to health by them and discretely returned to the RAF when well enough. The family had given six weeks' free board and lodging and English tuition to a Turkish student every year since 1949 by way of a 'thank you'.

Off thread again ... .

[paul guthrie]

I think one of the Brookwood VC men is Dease, the first one right? And the actual medal is still in the family. I think Paul Rason knows the relative who has it.

[Terry Denham]

There are also German, Italian and French plots in Brookwood Military Cemetery as well as the very large plot for Chelsea Pensioners who are also in CWGC care.

The US plot there is not in the care of CWGC but the ABMC along with their WW2 cemetery at Cambridge.

The Turkish plot is actually in the adjacent civil Brookwood Cemetery along with several hundred scattered Commonwealth war graves - mostly WW1. The civil cemetery is the largest in the UK.

[paul guthrie]

Terry there is an interesting thing about the Chelsea Pensioners headstones, all say how long the man was a pensioner.

At Brookwood US , in the chapel are names of 563 men lost at sea, over 100 of them for Coast Guard ship Tampa which was torpedoed. One won Medal of Honor for running toward depth charges after spotting a torpedo. He was too late and could not get them off the ship.

[Terry Denham]

Paul

I know the memorial - very impressive.

I once had to look for some US WW1 casualties who had previously been buried in my home county of Sussex and was able to track them down to the plot in Brookwood.

I was also impressed with the service given to me by ABMC two years ago when I asked them by letter if they had an equivalent to the CWGC registers for their plots in Brookwood & in Cambridge. Not only did I get a reply within a couple of weeks but attached was a huge print-out of all the names in both locations and on the memorials with all their details - free of charge. It weighed a ton!

[Guest Hill 60]

I think one of the Brookwood VC men is Dease, the first one right? And the actual medal is still in the family. I think Paul Rason knows the relative who has it.

If you mean Lt Maurice James Dease VC who was killed on the 23 August 1914 then he is buried at St. Symphorien Military Cemetery, Mons, Belgium. Grave: V. B. 2.

[paul guthrie]

Right, sorry. I emailed Paul Rason but have not heard back. Didn't he have an OR man with him who was not killed? Maybe that's who it is, wish I could remember for sure. It's an exceptional VC if it were to be sold, rmember talking to Paul about that. Will back when I know.

[Bob Coulson]

Paul,

LT Dease was with Pvt Sidney Godley who was the first private soldier VC winner of WW1 but he is buried in Essex.

Bob.

[Guest Hill 60]

Pvt Sidney Godley who was the first private soldier VC winner of WW1 but he is buried in Essex.

Sidney Frank Godley died on the 29 June 1957, aged 67. He is buried at St. John's Churchyard, Loughton, Essex: Grave 3051.

Dease' medals are in the Royal Fusilier's Museum at the Tower of London. I saw them a few years back, they take pride of place in the VC display.

[Frank_East]

I think some of the US infantry victims from the Slapton Sands incident in May 1944 were buried at Brookwood. (Madeley in Cambridgeshire was the ultimate resting place of a number of the victims as I am sure T.D can confirm.)

Not forgetting the Brookwood SOE Memorial to the agents lost without known graves during World War 2.The people instructed to "Set Europe Ablaze"in the dark days of 1940.

The Canadian John MacAlister is remembered on the memorial having lost his life with Frank Pickersgill another Canadian.For some unknown reason,Pickersgill is remembered on a memorial in the Netherlands.

Yeo Thomas,a determined SOE operator is buried at Brookwood. He survived the murderous brutality of Sachenhausen Concentration Camp and died in Paris in 1964.

Regards

Frank East

[Terry Denham]

The story that some of the US casualties from Slapton Sands were buried at Brookwood before being moved elsewhere or back to the USA is unconfirmed. I was told it by the caretaker of the US plot but he could not supply the source of the info.

However, there was a plot behind the memorial where disgraced US soldiers were buried - those executed for various crimes. They were later exhumed and taken to a US cemetery in France. This may have been the source of the story or, indeed, could it have been the cover story for Slapton victims?

The Slapton victims, I believe, were supposedly first buried locally and then moved. Brookwood could have been a likely destination as it is under government control (via CWGC) and obviously military burials were frequent.

The vast majority of WW1 US casualties remaining in the UK are at Brookwood (468) and the WW2 casualties (3799) are at Cambridge American Cemetery. There are a tiny handful of individual US graves elsewhere in Britain as follows -

WW1

Ayr (4)

Girvan (Doune) (2)

Cliveden (2)

and one each at - (WW1 unless shown otherwise)

Aberdeen (Nellfield)

Aberdeen (Springbank)

Kilnaughton, Islay

Falmouth

Portsmouth (Kingston)

Dover (St James) (WW2)

Blackley (Jewish)

Lincoln (Newport)

Tydd St Mary

Oxford (Wolvercote)

Kelso

Worcester

Coatham

[Hedley Malloch]

The story that some of the US casualties from Slapton Sands were buried at Brookwood before being moved elsewhere or back to the USA is unconfirmed. ... (snip) ...

Terry,

A couple of years ago I was told by an ABMC employee that the US WW2 burials in Brookwood were 'rationalised' in the late 40s; many were shipped back to the US in line with the US Government's policy of repatriation; others were moved to Cambridge.

HMG intially objected to the plans for repatriation because it was felt that it would set a precedent HMG would have to follow; UK relatives would ask for British war dead to be brought home and HMG could not afford this. Eventually HMG agreed to the ABMC moving the bodies, but only on condition that the exercise was carried out in secret; that is, at night and under armed guard so the natives would not get wind of what was going on.

This remarkable incident shed light on the reasons for the 'no repatriation' policy which are more to do with economics than sentiment.

[Terry Denham]

Yes, Hedley, I think you are right.

What you say is the history of the US at Brookwood as I know it. My use of the word 'unconfirmed' was only meant to apply to the Slapton men.

Obviously, no repatriation was an economic issue and no UK government wanted to pay the vast sums involved if repatriation had been allowed. As soon as it became clear to the Treasury that casualties were not going to be light (!), there would have been no hope of them agreeing to mass repatriation. The handful of repatriations (all officers) (before mid-1915 when the rule was introduced by IWGC's predecessor military department) were paid for by the n-o-k.

However, the founder of CWGC, Sir Fabian Ware, did genuinely believe that this was the right policy in the name of equality and the Treasury rushed to agree! At the time, the question of 'health' issues was also put forward to support the no-repatriation rule.

Nothing had changed by WW2

[Alan Lines]

I think Brookwood is quite near Witley where the Canadians had a camp. Possibly some of the Canadian burials come from here?

[paul guthrie]

Well with regard to my earlier post about VC winners at Brookwood, I have heard from Paul Rason and confess to total confusion by me. He told me while at that cemetery that the family of Private Sidney Frank Godley is still in the possession of the family and that he has held it. Godley has nothing to do with Brookwood though. Sorry!

[Frank_East]

The French US Cemetery where the US disgraced executed personnel of both World Wars were interred is the Oise Aisne Cemetery near Fere-en-Tardenenois.(I cannot recollect the dishonoured dead of The Great War but I am aware of a number from World War 2 who may be buried here.)

This cemetery dates back to The Great War. Plot E was used as a resting place of those who were condemned to death for a wide range of crimes and appears to be on the face of Mars as regards acknowledgement of it's existence by the US Military establishment.

This was the second resting place of one Eddie Slovak who was the only US soldier to be executed in WW2 for desertion and the only US soldier to be executed since the American Civil War.This illiterate soldier was executed after a trial which has similar parallels to the successful guilty verdicts against our own British and now Commonweath foot soldiers. A common thread through every desertion case was poor representation against the might and power of the Military establishment. When you look at the Slovak case it was history repeating itself.

I must say I am surprised that US Veterans have not lobbied for some form of pardon for this victim of war. Perhaps they have.

Eddie Slovak's remains were finally removed to Chicago sometime in the late1980s/early 1990s but Plot E remains as secure as Fort Knox against unauthorised entry.

Regards

Frank East

[Hedley Malloch]

... (snip) ...

Eddie Slovak's remains were finally removed to Chicago sometime in the late1980s/early 1990s but Plot E remains as secure as Fort Knox against unauthorised entry.

An interesting contrast with the CWGC view that the executed soldiers of the British Army were all 'good' soldiers up until the time of their death and that they were all entitled to a 'normal' burial.

I am told that the executed US soldiers are not individually commemorated in Plot E of the Oise ABMC cemetery; their graves are only indicated by numbered plaques

[Clive Maier]

...... Seem to be more Canadians than other Empire men, must have been a Canadian hospital nearby. I know there was one at Bromley, Kent but do not know if that's close........

The hospital was at Orpington in Kent, a few miles from Bromley. It was known as the Ontario Military Hospital and was opened in February 1916 by Bonar Law. The wooden ward huts survived until quite recently. Those who died of their injuries were interred a mile or so away in Canadian Corner, as it is known locally. There are also some Australian and UK graves. An account of Canadian Corner has been researched and written by John Pateman.

This how CWGC describes Canadian Corner:

"All Saints Churchyard has been extended across the lane to the North, and Ontario Cemetery (the name given at the request of the Ontario Government) is the South-East corner of the new ground. The Ontario Military Hospital (February 1916-September 1917) became No. 16 Canadian General Hospital (September 1917-September 1919). The cemetery contains 118 War Graves, of which 88 are Canadian; and a War Cross is erected at the West end."

[BIG DAVE]

A plot in the west corner of the cemetery contains approximately 2,400 Canadian graves of the Second World War including those of 43 men who died of wounds following the Dieppe Raid in August 1942.