Trevelyan Posted 9 December , 2004 Share Posted 9 December , 2004 If there is no mention of a 'Bar' to the 1914 Star on a chap's MIC, could he still be entitled to it, and perhaps have it listed on his 1914 Star Medal Roll? The chap in question disembarked 12th Nov 1914 so definitely entitled to the 1914 Star, but that date is cutting it a bit thin to earn the bar, esp. as he was cavalry and his regiment did not enter 'the line' until December 1914. This is not really my area, so any help would be great. Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 9 December , 2004 Share Posted 9 December , 2004 Usually the MIC does not use the word "Bar" but rather "clasp and roses" or "c & r" to indicate the award of a claps to the 1914 Star. Many men were not awarded the clasp because they were not underfire during the period - others were eligible for the clasp but never applied for it. Regards. Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted 9 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2004 Thanks Dick, His MIC (downloaded from the NA) indicates nothing close to 'clasp', 'clasp and roses', or 'c & r'. It states "Star issued by Govt of India Auth WS/5/2581" and "BWM Medal iss in India Auth WS/5/3514". It goes on to say "Extd from WS/5/3514" NS "Disembarkation Date WS/5/2521 Rolls Shows 12/11/14." The only other info is his name, rank unit, BEF 1914 etc...overall a fairly bland MIC. So if there is no mention of a clasp to the Star on his MIC, is it safe to assume 100% that he did not receive it? This would make sense as he landed only 10 days before the end of the qualifying date, but the dealer is selling it as a 1914 Star & Bar group, which just dosn't sit quite right with me. Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glosters Posted 9 December , 2004 Share Posted 9 December , 2004 You have answered your own question in a way: "his regiment did not enter 'the line' until December 1914" Being in France in Nov. 1914 did not qualify you for the clasp. The qualification for the clasp was those 'who actually served under the fire of the enemy in France or Belgium' between 5 August and 22 November 1914. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted 9 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2004 Thanks Steve, True, but its always possible that he was with an advanced party that went right up after disembarking, or perhaps was temp. attached to another unit already in the line, thus qualifying for the bar, even if his regiment as a whole did not. My query however was not really about the qualifying period of the bar and or star, which I was well aware of, but rather if the absense of reference to the bar on a MIC 100% confirms that he was not entitled to it. Take Care, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 9 December , 2004 Share Posted 9 December , 2004 Steve: I just checked all the MICs that I have for 1914 Stars with clasps to RA officers and they all indicate the clasp on the MIC. If your man is by chance an RFA, RHA or RGA officer I can check the rolls for you as I have them on a database. Can't help if it is an other rank or an officer other that RA. One rather interesting thing that I have found in examing the RA officers rolls for the 1914 Stars is that many officers who were eligible for the clasp never claimed it. Regards. Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted 9 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2004 Dear Dick, Thanks...this is really helpful. I'm now 99% sure my chap was not entitled to the bar as the dealer claims. He was however, an Indian Army officer, not British Army and therefore of course not artillery. Thanks though for the offer. Best Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombadier Posted 9 December , 2004 Share Posted 9 December , 2004 My grandfather was in the RGA and has the qualifying date of 22.8.14. there is no mention of clasp and roses on his MIC but they are definitely there with his medals at home, along with his Old Contemptible lapel badge. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcderms Posted 9 December , 2004 Share Posted 9 December , 2004 I'm also not sure that all MICs mention the bar etc. even when the soldier was entitled to it. I can't read all of my great-grandads card clearly but unless one of the scribbles refers to the bar, it isn't there. However, I know he was in action at the battles at Mons and Le Cateau... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted 9 December , 2004 Share Posted 9 December , 2004 Hi Chris, You may recall a thread last year where I mentioned the OMRS article by Steve Brookes dealing with awards of a clasp for the 1914 Star. I think that, like myself, he had difficulty in understanding how of 378,000 stars, only 161,000 received a clasp. We all know about how many rear echelon types there are, but it strikes me as very odd that in the epic battles and confusion of the period August to November,1914, some 217,000 men saw absolutely no fighting. Brookes studied many MIC's and determined that more accurate totals might be something along the line of 378,000 stars issued, some 85,000 didn't qualify for the clasp; another 161,000 stars plus clasps awarded; and most importantly, another 132,000 stars awarded to people who earned the clasp but for various reasons (which he discusses in the article) did not apply for it. His numbers make sense to me. I certainly have trios to men who qualified for the clasp but have no mention of it on their MIC - people wounded in September,1914 for example. Another point I would like to make deals with the eligibility of certain units for the clasp. Supposedly the 5th, 13th,14th, and 16th Bns of the London Regiment were eligible, having reached the front lines before 22 November. However, the 1/9th Bn (Queen Victoria's Rifles), which had landed in France on 5 November, didn't move up until 27 November, so supposedly no clasp. In my collection is the trio with clasp to 2110 Pte.Horace P. Winter,1/9 London Regt. His MIC clearly states that he received the clasp and roses, so he may well have been in an advance party and able to sneak in under the wire to qualify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priv Posted 9 December , 2004 Share Posted 9 December , 2004 The figures for unclaimed clasps is understandable either through persons not wishing to apply for a multitude of reasons. I have a 14 Star trio to a 1st Beds man who was KIA in March 1915 - there is an extremely high probability that he was entitled to the clasp as his batallion was heavily involved at Mons, Le Cateau and First Ypres - (he landed 16 Aug)- but unless claimed by his Next of Kin, would not have registered on his MIC. I am sure that there were plenty of cases like this. It is possible, that in the bleak post war years, the camaraderie of the Old Comntemptibles Assoc. appealed to many, but there were probably an equally large number of men who just wanted to put the past few years behind them and the thought of re-living the early months of the war was the last thing they would want to do. Just my thoughts and observations............................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priv Posted 9 December , 2004 Share Posted 9 December , 2004 Meant to add - without the Clasp you couldn't join the OC Assoc...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scott leader Posted 9 December , 2004 Share Posted 9 December , 2004 Likewise I have a 1914 Trio to a Leiut in the 2/Bedford's he landed in France on the 6th October, from thier the battalion went stright to the front at Ypres - Gheluvelt, where he was severely wounded by the attack force, but was brought in. All this is confirmed, so I'm sure he must cover the clasp period more so he was wounded!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted 14 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 14 December , 2004 Thanks to all those who responded to my query - it definitely helped! Take Care, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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