Mark Hone Posted 17 May , 2003 Share Posted 17 May , 2003 Following on from the recent Crooneart Wood (and Sanctuary Wood) discussions I fell to wondering how many private 'trench museums' were operating in the first wave of battlefield tourism in the 1920's and 1930's. Guidebooks often refer to several in the Ypres Salient area, of which Hill 60 and Sanctuary Wood are claimed to be the last survivors, and Crooneart Wood the most recent one to close. Does any Pal know where they were and did any apart from the above struggle on into relatively recent times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 17 May , 2003 Share Posted 17 May , 2003 Interesting question Mark. I have read references to the Butte de Warlencourt being a nest of excavation with the results being sold to tourists standing by. Pilgrims to the Menin Gate also complained of locals attempting to sell them articles there. So I have an impression that the Western Front was one big trench museum in these terms but apart from the famous survivors you mention , I don't know where any other more formal establishments may have sprung up though I suppose that many estaminets will have filled that role - rather like Le Tommy at Pozieres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 17 May , 2003 Share Posted 17 May , 2003 Well, originally you had the museum at Hill 60. There was a quarrel in the family and the collection was split up. A part stayed in Hill 60, while the other part went to a (then) new museum in Sanctuary Wood. At this time, the trenches there were dug. I believe this was some time after WW2... In the Ypres area you also had the museum of Debruyne near Kruiseke Crossroads, which later moved to Dadizele. There was also a small museum at the "Boyau de la Mort" in Diksmuide. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 17 May , 2003 Share Posted 17 May , 2003 Blunden describes a visit to the Hill 60 Museum :- "It will be a souvenir shop , a window displaying several brands of beer,a slippery patch of ground enclosed by wire fences, and a placarded hole or two like the rubbish-dumps of any village , but without so much iron." ( From " We went to Ypres" essay.) Sounds kinda familiar ! Interestingly he then desribes another "museum" near by advertised as "Original Fire Trenches" . The man running it complains that 10 francs to return a British body to Ypres is not enough but that the Germans give nothing so German bodies are not reported. He proudly produces a recently found boot with toes still in it. Blunden says he served in these trenches with the 11th Sussex. Warrington C.T is mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 17 May , 2003 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2003 Now I come to recall it I am sure that I have had the site of that 'other' Hill 60 museum, with its preserved trenches, pointed out to me on a battlefields tour years ago. Perhaps it was a WFA one in 1987. I seem to recall that there were newish houses on the site. Perhaps someone else knows the exact location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 17 May , 2003 Share Posted 17 May , 2003 There used to be a dug out and preserved trenches in the old Hill 60 museum (as can be seen on old postcards). I believe these were filled up during WW2. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 17 May , 2003 Share Posted 17 May , 2003 I hope this comes true. Original publicity for Hill 60 made in the early 30ies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 17 May , 2003 Share Posted 17 May , 2003 Same for Hill 62 in the same period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 17 May , 2003 Share Posted 17 May , 2003 The trenches near hill 60 were subject of almost weekly advertising in the local Ypres newspapers of the 1930's. The complex was called 'the Hindenburg line', although it has nothing to do with this. Pictures from the advertising show excavated bunkers ( they must still be there today, but burried again?), mortars and a machine-gun post. There was also a 15 meter tower which gave views over the battlefields. I will try if I can post some pictures tomorrow. Bert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 17 May , 2003 Share Posted 17 May , 2003 Bert, You should take in consideration that the Germans called their frontline in 1917: "Hindenburglinie". So the name "Hindenburg Line" is a perfect translation. It is the English who mistranslated the "Siegfriedlinie" (the fortified line to which the Germans withdrew early 1917) into "Hindenburg Line". So, you have two "Hindenburg Lines". Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 17 May , 2003 Share Posted 17 May , 2003 This is very close to being "off topic", but I believe there was (or is ) a section of Camp Hughes containing some Great War trench systems which was (or is ) designated as an "historical site" in some way. Camp Hughes is near Winnipeg, so the trenches were dug purely for training purposes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 18 May , 2003 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2003 There was a model of Messines Ridge, used for training puposes, on Cannock Chase which was open for some time after the war. I've never visited the site but I think it has pretty much vanished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 18 May , 2003 Share Posted 18 May , 2003 Hi James: Parts of the trench system and the cemetery still remain at Camp Hughes. The last time I was there in the '80's, there were still a few building standing. As you mentioned, it's a Manitoba Provincial Heritage Site, about 150 km west of Winnipeg, and is open to the public. If you can find it. It was used as training centre for CEF troops between 1915-1918. About 40,00 men were trained there during that period. It was reopened for open field warfare training of troops during WW2. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 18 May , 2003 Share Posted 18 May , 2003 May I make a minor correction/addition to this? The museum at Hill 60 was started by British ex-servicemen in the 1920s; the trenches were all 'dug' and not original. The father of a founder member of the WFA was one of those who dug them. It closed and was abandonded during WW2. In 1919 the grandfather of Jacques Scheer at Hill 62/Sanctuary Wood opened a trench museum there. This has remained open ever since. The trenches are 'original' but much work has been done to them to stop them falling in. Shell holes have indeed been dug, and in the 1990s he opened up on section of the tunnel so it had two exists. There was also a large 'trench museum' at Nieuport on the Belgian coast in the 20s and of course, the Trench of Death at Dixmuide, which is still there - the one at Nieuport disappeared c.WW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 18 May , 2003 Share Posted 18 May , 2003 Just to add something. The publicity for Hill 62 says: original Canadian Trenches at Sanctuary Wood. Proprietor: M. Delannoy. Looking closely at the one from Hill 60 it seems to me that it is not even on what we recognise today to be Hill 60 but next to it in the meadow ( to go to Caterpillar) . Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 19 May , 2003 Share Posted 19 May , 2003 Quite right there Paul! It were the drivers of captain Leonard Knox's 'Shannon complex' ( Irish-ran hotel-cinema-battlefield tours at the Hoornwerk, just outside the Menin Gate) who dug the trenches at Hill 60. The advertisement speaks of 'excavated trenches' however, so they were not sold to the tourists as the real thing. I wonder if the bunkers are still there...buried beneath the soil. Still not able to post the pictures though, no scanner here at my student room. Tried it at a friend's place, but the file was too large to save on a disk. 'LL try again this weekend when I'm at home. Bert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 20 May , 2003 Share Posted 20 May , 2003 This is very close to being "off topic", but I believe there was (or is ) a section of Camp Hughes containing some Great War trench systems which was (or is ) designated as an "historical site" in some way. Camp Hughes is near Winnipeg, so the trenches were dug purely for training purposes! Similar to this, these are the "training" trenches used by the "Accrington Pals" (11/E.Lancs.) over the winter of 1914/15. Several rows of these can be found on the "Coppice" overlooking the town of Accrington,Lancs., an area now mainly used for walking, dog walking, horse riding and motorbike scrambling (apparently, the trenches make great "jumps"!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummy Posted 22 May , 2003 Share Posted 22 May , 2003 Just read an interesting section on Hill 60, contained on the inside cover of Pt 23, The Great War 'I was there' (Published in 1939?): "During the war, it seems a Belgian girl known as 'the belle of Zillebeke' lived in a house which was struck by a shell. She was dragged to safety by Rifleman Ted Moon, who hailed from the Old Kent Road. She married him after the War was over, and they settled down at Zillebeke, where Mr. Moon had got a job as a War Graves gardener. Mrs. Moon was far sighted; she built a cafe in the style of a wartime canteen at the foot of Hill 60, and, filled with tourists, it was a great success - until a Belgian neighbour provided a rival attraction by throwing open to the public a network of wartime tunnels and trenches. Mrs. Moon's custom suffered by it - until she too, found trenches and tunnels behind her canteen. The rival neighbours quarelled; and finally the Belgian put up a large notice board saying, in three langauges, that Mrs. Moon's trenches were a 'fake'. The case was fought out in court at Ypres, and Mrs. Moon won so her cafe prospers again." Interesting stuff. I paid a visit to Hill 60 last year, a bit dismayed that the weapons outside appeared to be left to rust away though! Neil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 22 May , 2003 Share Posted 22 May , 2003 just a slight error Drummy, they didn't marry after the war, but on the first october 1918, a month before the armistice. Moon was just 23 at that time, a lot younger than his wife. Orinda Elsdale 'Belle' was allready a widow from before the war. She and edward got two children: Adonie (°1919) and Edouard (°1920), who still lives somewhere in the UK I think. Both went to the Eton Memorial School in Ypres. Intersting post though!! Is there a chance I can get a copy of that article? I would really appreciate it! best, Bert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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