Background required to 3 WW1 medals if possible please

[vpb]

In June 2011 I posted a topic on this forum regarding my grandfather's naval service record (Arthur Francis Victor Barnard, CPO RN, J8881), and the forum members who responded were very helpful in progressing my research. The topic progressed to Arthur's WW1 medals and it was established that he had an oak leaf on his Victory Medal (meaning MID), a Croix de Guerre Avec Palm (meaning he had been awarded that more than once) and a bronze award from the Royal Humane Society (for saving 57 men in the China Seas). My cousin raised this on another site at the time:-  http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/Letters/ArthurBarnardofGosportEng.html

 

5 years on and I have just finished compiling a history of Arthur's life and am hoping to either publish it, pass it to the IWM and/or NMRN or create an online resource for it in the near future. However, I am still trying to find out the full story about Arthur's more interesting medals. The LG does not have any information on the C de G or the MID medals. I have been to touch with the Royal Humane Society (the records are now with the London Metropolitan Archives) and even paid for research to find the citation for Arthur. They searched the archives from 1912-1920 but found nothing, so I'm still at a loss for the stories behind these 3 medals, other than what Arthur said in the newspaper interview in 1941 that was on the 'Ahoy - Mac's Web Log' website a few years back. I was wondering if anybody may have any new ideas about where I could look? Any assistance would be gratefully received (and acknowledged in any published resource). Arthur's Naval Service Record is still viewable under the old topic if required:- 

Sincere thanks in advance.

Best regards

Vince Barnard

[Lawryleslie]

One thing that is puzzling me......you refer to him as a CPO. However his photograph is of him in Petty Officers uniform and a quick glance at his service record does not show any rank above Petty Officer. Could this be where your research is going astray perhaps.

[Muerrisch]

This helps not one bit, but when was the portrait taken? I ask because it shows very well in grey tones the designs of the medal ribbons, something that the orthochromatic film in use up until about 1925 cannot achieve. I am hoping a date nearer 1930. The three Good Conduct badges suggest a 1920s date.

 

By the way, the Victory Medal does not in itself mean a Mention. That distinction is shown by the oak leaf on the ribbon.

Edited 29 September , 2016 by Muerrisch

[EDWARD1]

Does this refer to the wreck of the SS Antung with 511 crew and passengers on March 6th 1933 off Mofu Point Mainan Strait The SS Anhui attending.? If so there is an article in the Western News Thursday August 9th 1934.

If not no matter

Eddie

[vpb]

20 hours ago, Lawryleslie said:

One thing that is puzzling me......you refer to him as a CPO. However his photograph is of him in Petty Officers uniform and a quick glance at his service record does not show any rank above Petty Officer. Could this be where your research is going astray perhaps.

 Thanks for the responses. Firstly Arthur rejoined the RN at the start of WW2 (he retired at age 40 in 1935) and was made CPO then, sorry for any confusion. Regarding the date of the photo, I think it must be post 1934 as he received his long service award then and it is shown in the photo. I realise the oak leaf indicates the distinction, sorry if I didn't make that clear. Finally Arthur was serving on HMS Nelson (the ship rather than the shore base) in 1933 but I don't have record of the ship being involved in the SS Antung incident. I will look into that though just in case. 

[vpb]

Also, I should add that the single medal on Arthur's right breast is definately a Royal Humane Society Medal. He got it for swimming from his ship in order to get a line to a drfting cutter with 57 men on board. This was on the China seas on his first commission on HMS Hampshire between 1912 and 1914. Why there is no trace of the citation or record with the RHS is the unsold mystery.

[gem]

Hi vpb unfortunately not able to answer your question re your grandfather but wondered if it would be useful to post your query under the ships and navy topic on the forum

Just an idea

[The Inspector]

Hi

Can't find any trace of C de G

Regards Barry

Edited 30 September , 2016 by The Inspector

[ARABIS]

A couple of observations without reference to the photograph.

If you are unable to find any record of the RHS medal how do you know one was awarded? 

There does not seem to be a record of a DSM for him. The only Barnard awarded the DSM for service during the Great War was Z.7619 Cecil Harper Barnard, Ordinary Telegraphist RNVR.

So I respectfully ask how sure you are that the gentleman in the photograph wearing a DSM & RHS Medal is your grandfather?

[The Inspector]

Hi Vpb

You state that the palm on the C de G signifies that he was awarded it more than once, that's not what I have read. The number of stars or palms were worn on the ribbon to signify the singular or multiple awards. The bronze palm was for those mentioned at Army level and the silver palm represents five bronze mentions. 

No doubt someone will tell me if I have got it wrong!

Regards Barry

3 citations, two bronze palms , one silver gilt star. 

 

Edited 30 September , 2016 by The Inspector

[topgun1918]

I have it that the emblems worn on the ribbon of the Croix de Guerre were:

Bronze Palm (Palme en Bronze) for mention on Army level (5 bronze palms to be replaced by a silver one by decree of 8 January 1917)

Silver Gilt star (Étoile en Vermeil) for mention on Corps level

Silver star (Étoile en Argent) for mention on Division level

Bronze star (Étoile en Bronze)  for mention at Brigade or Battalion level.

Graeme 

[The Inspector]

Hi All

http://shipwreckedmariners.org.uk/map/london/

The SS Antung nothing to do with Barnard.

Regards Barry

[vpb]

Hi thanks for the replies. Yes I can categorically confirm that the man in the photo is my grandfather Arthur Barnard. From the discussions 5 years ago on this forum (see link above) it was other members that pointed out the oak leaf and palm, and then advised on their views of the meaning. Arthur was quoted in a Canadial newspaper interview just before he died on WW2 that he receivedthe RHS awat fir saving 57 men in the China seas in c1913. So I'm sure the medals are genuine, that his story is true and that there should be evidence out there to support it somehow.

Regards

Vince