A conundrum

[redrob]

Two things really.

First -I am absolutely certain that my great uncle John William Gregory died during the war.  However I have spent hours and hours searching through CWGC and Soldiers died and can't find anyone of a similar background. Unfortunately I don't know which regiment he was in.

Is it at all possible that an individual might be missed in the 'system'?

And second, am I right in thinking that soldiers who died in the war had to have a civilian registration of death? And if so would this be in the parish of birth or where he signed up at or his last known address?

 

Thanks in advance.

[BillyH]

We could do with a bit more info. such as year of birth, place of birth, where he lived etc.

As far as I know, if a soldier died overseas he would only have an overseas death certificate - which are usually not worth the money.

 

BillyH.

[Phil Wood]

Over 2,000 men were overlooked by the CWGC (or IWGC as was) and have in recent years been added to the CWGC commemorative roll.  See the In from the Cold Project for more info.

 

Army deaths overseas indexes (which I assume cover more than France and Belgium) are available online - as BillyH notes these contain little or no useful information beyond that held by the CWGC.  These registers have been trawled for those missed by the CWGC so they should no longer include uncommemorated men.

 

Deaths in the UK are more problematic, I have had a few cases accepted by the CWGC for commemoration, but have several others where there is insufficient evidence to make the case for commemoration. These are men who died after discharge, very probably owing to their war service. In general their service records have not survived so the cause of discharge remains unknown. For instance a man dies of TB 6 months after discharge, odds are that he was discharged because he picked up TB while serving. If his service rcord survives and confirms this the CWGC will add him to their roll, if the service record went up in flames in 1940 they won't unless some alternative proof is available.

 

Your best bet is probably the Soldiers' Effects Registers (Ancestry) - these give unit, date of death and next of kin name - this latter might serve to distinguish between men of the same name.

 

Of course he could also have been Navy or RAF.

[johnboy]

FMP list around 50 John W and John William

More info needed, such as where from year of birth.....

[IPT]

Why would he be on CWGC or SDGW if he died in 1929?

[johnboy]

3 minutes ago, IPT said:

Why would he be on CWGC or SDGW if he died in 1929?

 

 

Where did you get 1929 from?

[IPT]

3 minutes ago, johnboy said:

 

 

Where did you get 1929 from?

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

59 minutes ago, redrob said:

I am absolutely certain that my great uncle John William Gregory died during the war.

So what research have you done in the last 2 years that have prompted you to revise your findings?

[johnboy]

Thanks IPT. The OP made no ref to previous enquiry. That post seemed to contain a bit more info than this one. 

He is adamant the man died during the war but was also sure that he died in 1929.

I'll stop searching for now until the OP comes up with something concrete. 

[redrob]

I was wrong about his date of death and had forgotten the original post!! Crikey! There are some dilligent folk here

I am certain he died because all we have of him is a photograph my gran had of him in uniform which she kept on her mantle. Had he survived this photo would not have had such a prominent place.All we have are two photos one of him when he was a boy and one in uniform.

He was born in a place called Hatfield Woodhouse, West Riding of Yorkshire in 1891. Last known whereabouts - he was as footman to Harry Whitworth of Scorborough Hall in 1911.

 

Looking through the Johns, John Williams and John W.'s they either have different places of birth or different parents.

 

Thanks people.

[BillyH]

The photograph of him in uniform may reveal his regiment. Can you post it on here?

 

BillyH.

[MBrockway]

Here's the biographical data from the OP's 2014 thread ...

 

 

On 19/07/2014 at 11:32, redrob said:

I originally put a vague question in units and formations - sorry.

I cannot pin down any service, sickness or medal records for either of my two great uncles. They appear to be quite healthy and fit in the 1911 census and relatively so after 1918 (I think).

<snip>

John (1891, but some records have it 1892) died without wife or child in July 1929. His 1911 employment was as 'Footman' to a local 'Big House' so I don't know if this prepared him for being someones batman or what, and he then lived smack bang within the recruiting area of the East Yorks Regiment - He is listed as living near Driffield in 1911. However the family home of Thorne was in KOYLI territory. Apparently Doncaster Absent voters list seems to be absent itself.

<snip - see below>

 

This part of the East Riding is also not far from the Yeoman Rifles' (21/KRRC) core recruiting area.

 

If this Rfn John W GREGORY proves to be in 21/KRRC, then he could be worth investigating in detail.  You'll need to check the BWM medal roll to get his battalion and since he ended up in the 9/LR (QVRs), you may need to check both the LR and KRRC rolls.

 

 

On 19/07/2014 at 11:32, redrob said:

John (1891, but some records have it 1892) died without wife or child in July 1929.

 

I think it was unusual that there was no wife or children and I am wondering whether a severe wound or gas might have restricted his social opportunities and his explain his early death (his sister and his father both were well into their 80's when they died) However, equally interesting is the fact that he was relatively wealthy when he died.

 

Tell us more about why you have changed your mind about him dying in 1929 please.

 

Good luck!

Mark

 

Edited 28 September , 2016 by MBrockway
Supplementary Qs added

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

And the card  for that John W. Gregory is available here, free if you have an Ancestry sub:

Link

 

The NA website have the service number wrong as R/22503. The correct number on the card is R/22563

Edited 28 September , 2016 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[John_Hartley]

11 hours ago, redrob said:

Is it at all possible that an individual might be missed in the 'system'?

And second, am I right in thinking that soldiers who died in the war had to have a civilian registration of death?

Yes.

 

And no.

 

With the lack of information you have about his service, I don't know how you can discount the various J Gregory's listed by CWGC as being him (appreciate there's bound to be some that have family info that confirm that the man isnt him)

[MBrockway]

I'm Ancestry free just now Dai - I assume the MIC doesn't mention battalions?

 

This KRRC/QVR John Gregory also appears to have survived the War incidentally.

[ss002d6252]

Who were his closest surviving relatives - if you can supply the names then it's more likely he can be found if he's in the soldiers effects records.

Craig

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

4 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

I'm Ancestry free just now Dai - I assume the MIC doesn't mention battalions?

No, just 9LR

[ss002d6252]

Medal roll shows 2nd KRRC. Temp Sgt with the 9th Londons.

 

Craig

Edited 28 September , 2016 by ss002d6252

[MBrockway]

59 minutes ago, redrob said:

I was wrong about his date of death and had forgotten the original post!! Crikey! There are some dilligent folk here

I am certain he died because all we have of him is a photograph my gran had of him in uniform which she kept on her mantle. Had he survived this photo would not have had such a prominent place.All we have are two photos one of him when he was a boy and one in uniform.

 

Strange logic here IMHO - of my own grandfather I have four photos: one from the Great War, two from the Home Guard in WW2 and one from the early 1950's.

 

He died in 1980.

 

How can you be so certain he did not die in 1929 as you originally described?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, redrob said:

I was wrong about his date of death

Ok.

So what date of death are you now going with?

Have you got the death certificate of John W. Gregory who died in 1929 in Thorne, Yorkshire and do the details on it confirm he is the man who was in Scorborough Hall in 1911?

[MBrockway]

3 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Medal roll shows 2nd KRRC. Temp Sgt with the 9th Londons.

 

Craig

 

Cheers Craig - not a Yeoman Rifle then.  Even in 2/KRRC he cannot be ruled out entirely as the KRRC recruited nationally, with examples from the East Riding certainly existing.  Once in the KRRC, a later transfer to the London Regiment would not be unusual because of the rifles TF affiliations, and a spell in the QVR's would not necessarily indicate the man had origins in London.

 

Notwithstanding I'd say he is much less likely now though.

[ss002d6252]

None of the 4 John William Gregory's in the effects records were born in Yorkshire.

Craig

[MBrockway]

Could some kind Pal check the medal rolls for a battalion for this other rifleman JW Gregory? 

 

Rfn JW GREGORY, R/33527 KRRC, then 55665 in 16th London Regiment (QWRs)

 

MIC via NA

 

Beyond that I'm waiting for redrob to clarify the 1929 death dates etc.

Edited 28 September , 2016 by MBrockway

[John_Hartley]

12 KRRC

 

FWIW, you have a typo - his London number is 556651, according to the roll

[ralphjd]

That number from August 1918 - Feb 1919