Bertram Arthur Bagnall RNAS & RAF

[Matlock1418]

One last thing today - will I ever go?

I've been looking but I haven't yet been able to find a pension record for B.A.B. - seems slightly unusual since there was a widow, Eva, and presumably at least one child.

I might perhaps have expected a claim - whether or not it might have been successful we can't say at the moment - especially as the cause of death apparently seemed to have been pneumonia - only a Death Certificate will clear up the cause of death for certain [DC Available from the GRO https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp  - £7 for a PDF in only c.4 days - £11 for a full one in about 2 weeks]

Maybe she didn't claim??? - again we can speculate but perhaps for another day / another person to be able to track down [if a claim record exists]

:-) M

 

Edit:

One last thing today now - handy for later today!

This appears how we know where he died in Cambridge.

His Effects Register entry - and what was paid to his widow

Image courtesy of Ancestry

Edited 18 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
added and link and edit

[The Inspector]

Hi All

Pension details here...https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/174456693/person/172266477617/facts

Regards Barry

Edited 18 June , 2021 by The Inspector

[The Inspector]

10 hours ago, DBAhmed said:

Grandmother Eva Mynott 

mother Nora Bagnall

father Leslie Hamilton Hill 

Hi Dawn and all,

The above info. obviously relates to your father and not Bertram.

Pension ledger widow Eva (Mynott, Bagnall, later Turnbull, 1895 -1978 and children, Nora Olive  Bagnall 1913-1987, Bertram Iver Bagnall 1916-1993

Regards Barry.

[sadbrewer]

On 18/06/2021 at 10:12, DBAhmed said:

Thank you for all this information cannot wait to tell my dad  I will message you . I am hoping to visit willian church with my dad when the good weather returns. Is it only the RAF information you can collect my dads father was in the Bedford and Hertfordshire Regiment in the Second World War he survived to reach an old age of 102 kind regards Dawn  

Was your Dad's father Bertram Ivor?...if so send me a PM.

 

Bertram Arthur Bartlett was involved in a dispute between union and non union Labour at the Lacre Motor Company of Letchworth in 1912. You will need to take a short subscription to view the full article though.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000679%2f19120504%2f133&stringtohighlight=bertram bagnall

 

 

 

 

 

[Matlock1418]

On 18/06/2021 at 17:59, The Inspector said:

Pension details here...https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/174456693/person/172266477617/facts

Thank Barry,

Brilliant!

Knew there really must have been one but was tired earlier and didn't search under his number 345 - doh!

I can't see via the link so post this from another route so it can perhaps be more readily seen.

This is the main card - there are two other pension cards under this number but they add little more

 

Image courtesy of Western Front Association/Fold3

The influenza speculated upon in a much earlier 2016 post is clearly shown.  A DC would be a more formal confirmation.

Most else is pretty clear, but a few small pieces of interpretation:

The 11/APW/777 is a pension office reference for his widow's claim - in Region 11 [SE England} for an Alternative Pension Widows [an increased pension based on the provision of evidence of higher pre-service civilian earnings]. 777 is just a claim number [the 788 is an earlier claim reference number which is also seen on another pension card]

- The widow's date of birth, 11.7.95, is important as she would have been expected to have received an age-related pension supplement [at that time at/after age 45 I believe]

- The children's ages are important too as their mother would only get their pension allowance until they were 16 [rarely extended except under very special extenuating circumstance]

- The £7 grant is the death grant for funeral and other incidental death expenses [like clothes & flowers etc.] - his body would have been transported to town of burial at the nation's expense [£5 for the widow and £1 for each of the children]

- The 50F 15.3.19 is a Form reference & date [a precursor to the pension being paid out]

- The pension of 12/9 from 8.5.19 is per week [usually a 6 month period of Separation Allowances (SA) would be paid in the interim]

:-) M

[DBAhmed]

1 hour ago, The Inspector said:

Hi Dawn and all,

The above info. obviously relates to your father and not Bertram.

Pension ledger widow Eva (Mynott, Bagnall, later Turnbull, 1895 -1978 and children, Nora Olive  Bagnall 1913-1987, Bertram Iver Bagnall 1916-1993

Regards Barry.

 

[DBAhmed]

That’s Correct my fathers mother was Nora Olive Bagnall  born  31st December 1947

[DBAhmed]

1 hour ago, sadbrewer said:

Was your Dad's father Bertram Ivor?...if so send me a PM.

 

Bertram Arthur Bartlett was involved in a dispute between union and non union Labour at the Lacre Motor Company of Letchworth in 1912. You will need to take a short subscription to view the full article though.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000679%2f19120504%2f133&stringtohighlight=bertram bagnall

 

 

 

 

[DBAhmed]

No my dad was born from Nora olive Bagnall the Daughter of Bertram Arthur Bagnall 

[Matlock1418]

Returning to the matter of his medal entitlement ...

Following on from the earlier 345 RNAS Medal Roll

Image courtesy of Find My Past

and the back of his 200345 RAF Record

Image courtesy of Find My Past

A further 345 RNAS Medal Roll [ADM 171; Piece: 94] entry confirms he was apparently awarded [issued to his ww - Widow with an issue in 1924] a 1914 Star & Clasp, British War Medal and Victory Medal [and presumably a MiD oak leaf emblem too]

 

Image courtesy of Ancestry

The big query now seems to be his date(s) of service in a France & Flanders theatre of war in order to get the 1914 Star & Clasp - for service within the period 5 August and midnight 22/23 November 1914.

Having read around GWF a bit - apparently a number of RN and related services [RM, RNAS, RNR, and RNVR] who actually served in France or Belgium on the establishment of a Naval unit landed for shore service on shore between were entitled to a 1914 Star and Clasp

Of these various units:

= RNAS Dunkirk - were entitled to the Star, but not a Clasp

= RNAS Armoured Cars - were entitled to the Star and a Clasp - but he seems unlikely to have served with them.

= RNAS No 1 and No 3 Wings - were entitled to a Star and Clasp

Thus that seems to leave RNAS No 1 and/or No 3 Wing as a possible service candidate(s). ??

Seems rather quick to get enlisted on 9 Sept 1914 and overseas before 22 Nov. 1914 but he seems to have been a technically qualified chap [an an Electrical Instrument Fitter] and thus perhaps operational needs may have prompted a quick deployment. ??

And despite the recorded 1915 dates in France he seems to have been eligible for a 1914 Star and Clasp.

???

As I have said before - not my main field - hopefully others more knowledgeable member(s) may perhaps pick up on this thread and help further with this puzzle.

:-) M

[DBAhmed]

12 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thank Barry,

Brilliant!

Knew there really must have been one but was tired earlier and didn't search under his number 345 - doh!

I can't see via the link so post this from another route so it can perhaps be more readily seen.

This is the main card - there are two other pension cards under this number but they add little more

Image courtesy of Western Front Association/Fold3

The influenza speculated upon in a much earlier 2016 post is clearly shown.  A DC would be a more formal confirmation.

Most else is pretty clear, but a few small pieces of interpretation:

- The widow's date of birth, 11.7.95, is important as she would have been expected to have received an age-related pension supplement [at that time at/after age 45 I believe]

- The children's ages are important too as their mother would only get their pension allowance until they were 16 [rarely extended except under very special extenuating circumstance]

- The £7 grant is the death grant for funeral and other incidental death expenses [like clothes & flowers etc.] - his body would have been transported to town of burial at the nation's expense [£5 for the widow and £1 for each of the children]

- The pension of 12/9 from 8.5.19 is per week [usually a 6 month period of Separation Allowances (SA) would be paid in the interim]

:-) M

 

[DBAhmed]

Hi matlock1418 

I visited my dad today with all the knowledge you provided. he was very grateful he had lots to add I’m so thankful to you.

Dad was told as a child his grandfather was in a balloon that crashed into the Irish Sea and was saved from the sea 

[Matlock1418]

Another snippet - MiD Register entry [ADM 171; Piece: 188]

 

Image courtesy of Ancestry

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

9 minutes ago, DBAhmed said:

Dad was told as a child his grandfather was in a balloon that crashed into the Irish Sea and was saved from the sea 

An interesting scenario to pursue research - not my field to research thoroughly but I did go back the the RAF Museum StoryVault to see if there was a Casualty Card for such an incident - couldn't find one [but RNAS probably more likely to have used a dirigible and such an incident record would be likely to be elsewhere I think - again over to others!].

and yet I found several more entries for BAB

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/pages/raf_vault.php?

Use the search on the left - Search using BAGNALL, B and you will find as BAGNALL, B.A. and BAGNALL, B.A. (Bertram Arthur) - always worth checking front and rear of cards.

The site isn't always the easiest to use in my opinion as you keep having to go back and forth and selecting records one by one - but persist and there are Rolls, Honours, Next of kin etc.

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

11 hours ago, DBAhmed said:

Dad was told as a child his grandfather was in a balloon that crashed into the Irish Sea and was saved from the sea 

As a bit of a follow-up - I've been wondering some more about this - got me thinking and checking BAB's records.

I at first wondered if in fact that story perhaps came from the North Sea instead - as such an important operational area ??

So ...  

Though it is not near the Irish Sea you can note from his RAF record that he was at RAF Kingsnorth, 1.4.18, [i.e. at the birth of the RAF] and later that year.

[A tiny worm must have been nagging my little grey cell!]

RAF Kingsnorth, in Kent, was formerly RNAS Kingsnorth, which operated airships throughout the war - typically doing anti-submarine work over the North Sea and Channel and in 1918 it certainly had dirigible airships there.

[I have previously looked a bit into the life and death of an officer killed in a crash of one of them from there that year, a Sea Scout 2 class - on land and all crew killed so BAB wasn't involved in that one]

Easy to check on the web and others have written books about the place

Quite a bit on the station if you search for RNAS/RAF Kingsnorth. Should give you a glimpse of where, if not wholly what he did, when he serviced. 

And on airships such as the Sea Scout and SS/SSZ/SS2 Class airships also come up easily [as examples of the sort of airship that he might have been involved with] if it takes your fancy.

Of course other RNAS stations existed as well and before 1918 - several in the South West, presumably covering the SW Approaches and the Irish Sea - so worth a wider web trawl if you are minded.

Yet nothing further firmly established for BAB, but it would be interesting to learn more.

Edited 19 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
typo, again!

[DBAhmed]

Hi matlock1418 

I visited my dad today with all the knowledge you provided. he was very grateful he had lots to add I’m so thankful to you.

Dad was told as a child his grandfather was in a balloon that crashed into the Irish Sea and was saved from the sea 

[DBAhmed]

Good morning Matlock1418

 I hope I’m not being a nuisance I am grateful for all this knowledge. I would not know where to start looking as I’m not very computer savvy are you living in the uk don’t even no we’re your from. We live in Bletchley Milton Keynes England great talking to you. 

[FROGSMILE]

On 19/06/2021 at 18:53, Matlock1418 said:

As a bit of a follow-up - I've been wondering some more about this - got me thinking and checking BAB's records.

I at first wondered if in fact that story perhaps came from the North Sea instead - as such an important operational area ??

So ...  

Though it is not near the Irish Sea you can note from his RAF record that he was at RAF Kingsnorth, 1.4.18, [i.e. at the birth of the RAF] and later that year.

[A tiny worm must have been nagging my little grey cell!]

RAF Kingsnorth, in Kent, was formerly RNAS Kingsnorth, which operated airships throughout the war - typically doing anti-submarine work over the North Sea and Channel and in 1918 it certainly had dirigible airships there.

[I have previously looked a bit into the life and death of an officer killed in a crash of one of them from there that year, a Sea Scout 2 class - on land and all crew killed so BAB wasn't involved in that one]

Easy to check on the web and others have written books about the place

Quite a bit on the station if you search for RNAS/RAF Kingsnorth. Should give you a glimpse of where, if not wholly what he did, when he serviced. 

And on airships such as the Sea Scout and SS/SSZ/SS2 Class airships also come up easily [as examples of the sort of airship that he might have been involved with] if it takes your fancy.

Of course other RNAS stations existed as well and before 1918 - several in the South West, presumably covering the SW Approaches and the Irish Sea - so worth a wider web trawl if you are minded.

Yet nothing further firmly established for BAB, but it would be interesting to learn more.

 

That’s really good detective work Matlock.  Deeply impressive.  Kudos to you.

 

The enclosed images give an idea of operations.  
 

For DBAhmed - also see: https://historicengland.org.uk/research/current/discover-and-understand/military/the-first-world-war/first-world-war-home-front/what-we-already-know/air/airships-balloon-seaplane/

 

 

 

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The enclosed images give an idea of operations.

As a follow up to my previous investigation of a fatal crash incident involving a SS2 - actually rather similar to the types show, but twin-engined

Operating these airships was certainly not without its risks

In the case I looked at the envelope caught fire at height [iirc, due to a leak from an exhaust] and the fuselage/gondola fell to the ground = Nasty! :-(

That particular flight was a proving trial flight for the airship [iirc, only its second]

Beyond the command officers the five man crew also included technical crew members to operate/monitor the equipment [and likely the instruments] onboard.

= Thus it rather goes to potentially support the story - it does seem quite possible that BAB was involved in flights too.

Wish we could find more.

:-) M

Edited 19 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
addit

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, DBAhmed said:

I would not know where to start looking as I’m not very computer savvy

A couple of quick search links:

RNAS/RAF Kingsnorth

https://www.google.com/search?q=kingsnorth+raf+ww1&safe=strict&hl=en&ei=BOjNYOK0Cv2cjLsPzoa88AE&oq=kingsnorth+raf+ww1&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgAEEcQsAM6BggAEBYQHjoFCCEQoAFQudsFWJbjBWDy5QVoAXACeACAAZIBiAH1A5IBAzMuMpgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXrIAQTAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjixqaM3qPxAhV9DmMBHU4DDx4Q4dUDCA4&uact=5

 

Airships [of the SS classes - as examples the sort known to have been found at Kingsnorth]

https://www.google.com/search?q=ss+airship&safe=strict&ei=o-jNYPP7JZKkUs7frlg&oq=ss+airship&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAwyBggAEAcQHjIGCAAQBxAeMgYIABAHEB4yBggAEAcQHjIGCAAQBxAeMgYIABAHEB4yBggAEAcQHjIGCAAQBxAeMgYIABAHEB4yBggAEAcQHjoHCAAQRxCwA1CJKViJKWDVTmgBcAJ4AIABmQOIAeUDkgEFMS40LTGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6yAEIwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwiz2arY3qPxAhUSkhQKHc6vCwsQ4dUDCA4

:-) M

[DBAhmed]

Again thank you some good information to follow 

[michaeldr]

19 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

The big query now seems to be his date(s) of service in a France & Flanders theatre of war in order to get the 1914 Star & Clasp - for service within the period 5 August and midnight 22/23 November 1914.

Fevyer & Wilson's book 'The 1914 Star to the Royal Navy & Royal Marines' gives the following information on p.193

Bagnall B. A.

Rank/Rating: AM1

Official Number: F345

Where Served: *BK

Per the abbreviations listed (p.8) the latter translates as

* = Service at Antwerp, Douai or Ypres; entitled to clasp

B = Service with Balloon Observation Detachment, Dunkirk October 1914

“Entitled to clasp vide Commander Maitland's List”

K = Service with Kite Balloon Section

[michaeldr]

The name 'Bagnall' also crops up on page 1 of Ces Mowthorpe's book 'Battlebags – British Airships of the First World War' when he is describing pre-war ballooning.

 

 

No further details, just the surname - coincidence?????

Edited 19 June , 2021 by michaeldr

[Matlock1418]

Just now, michaeldr said:

Fevyer & Wilson's book 'The 1914 Star to the Royal Navy & Royal Marines' gives the following information on p.193

Splendid!

Many thanks.

Kite balloons too.

Do you think his electrical equipment might perhaps have related to their telephone comms?  And perhaps later to wireless?

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, michaeldr said:

The name 'Bagnall' also crops up on page 1 of Ces Mowthorpe's book 'Battlebags – British Airships of the First World War' when he is describing pre-war ballooning.

Thanks again - just knew recently getting RNAS [& RAF] put in the title would bring a proper expert.

:-) M