Bertram Arthur Bagnall RNAS & RAF

[michaeldr]

4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Do you think his electrical equipment might perhaps have related to their telephone comms?  And perhaps later to wireless?

 

Very sorry Matlock, but that question is outside my field 

[Matlock1418]

4 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

that question is outside my field 

And mine!

Just speculating really.

;-) M

[Matlock1418]

 

5 hours ago, michaeldr said:

Where Served: *BK

Per the abbreviations listed (p.8) the latter translates as

* = Service at Antwerp, Douai or Ypres; entitled to clasp

B = Service with Balloon Observation Detachment, Dunkirk October 1914

“Entitled to clasp vide Commander Maitland's List”

K = Service with Kite Balloon Section

These abbreviations help explain much on the medal rolls/cards. etc.

He seems to have got around a bit to also have been at one or more of Antwerp, Douai or Ypres.

But 9 Sept enlistment and to Dunkirk by October is certainly remarkably fast to me.

???

But it seems it must have happened - unless there was an exception [which seems very unlikely]

@michaeldrDoes Commander Maitland's List exist?  Do you know any more?

 

Earlier @DBAhmed posted

"Dad was told as a child his grandfather was in a balloon that crashed into the Irish Sea and was saved from the sea" - the location might perhaps be wrong ??

And yet "Balloon" does sort of perhaps fit this explanation and vice versa.

Or was he alternatively at sea with a balloon?

As of course I think kite balloons were used for gunnery observation and anti-submarine work at sea too - possibly the Irish Sea ??

That said, other than 'stone frigate' shore establishments for pay etc.,  I don't think I see any ship(s) on his service records.

So tantalising!

 

4 hours ago, michaeldr said:

No further details, just the surname - coincidence?????

I too wondered/wonder - as "Bagnall" was described as "the pilot" in 1913

Would you go from airships to kite balloons?

So at the moment very much = ?????

Think Kingsnorth probably tends towards airships in 1918 for me.

And I believe military airship pilots were/tended to be officers.

But, as above, I think kite balloons were used for gunnery observation and anti-submarine work at sea too.

Senior NCOs might have possibly have fitted either role I suspect [though no expert on this subject] - But I am currently tending away from him being an airship pilot given his rank and his recorded trade [and I can't see/interpret anything on his records that might suggest this alternative role], but I could easily be wrong!

So interesting - Would be really great to find out more.

In hope ...

:-) M

Edited 19 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
added a mention for @michaeldr

[DBAhmed]

Thanks guys I also sent a link to my sister she’s so grateful to 

[Matlock1418]

4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

other than 'stone frigate' shore establishments for pay etc.,  I don't think I see any ship(s) on his service records.

@michaeldr

Again I have gone back and now think I may have to amend that above thought and row back on the 'stone frigate' and pay bit [if not the bit about a lack of ships].

As well as Kingsnorth in April 1915 on his RNAS record ...

Do you think the "Daedalus, 1 July 17" is actually HMS Daedalus at Lee-on-Solent - Another active RNAS airfield? [i.e. Before returning to Kingsnorth for 1918]

 

Edit: Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNAS_Lee-on-Solent_(HMS_Daedalus) have this on Daedalus as a seaplane training base/school opening later that month - perhaps he was involved with helping set it up  ?? [just speculating at the moment as no other evidence to hand]

 

Edit: Just in case you miss it/have missed it - please also see my earlier added enquiry in my post above re: Does Commander Maitland's List exist?  Do you know any more?

 

4 hours ago, DBAhmed said:

Thanks guys I also sent a link to my sister she’s so grateful to 

Hope you can piece all these various scraps into sense and into a chronology.

:-) M

Edited 19 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
edit

[DBAhmed]

Again thank you for all your time and effort kind regards Dawn

[sdparker]

With his low service number of F345, I wonder if he was with Captain Edward Maitland, who was the CO of 1(Airship) Squadron RFC, and was then transferred

to the RNAS. If so ,he could have been among the crew of the Astra Torres No3 Airship, which was sent to Dunkirk in October 1914, to support No 3 Squadron

RNAS under the control of Commander Charles Rumney Samson. This would entitle him to the 1914 Star, and maybe explain the reference to Captain Maitland's

list. This info from Royal Naval Air Service 1912-1918 by Brad King.

On his record card, the entry Daedalus may be Cranwell. Regards 

Geoff

[Matlock1418]

12 hours ago, sdparker said:

With his low service number of F345, I wonder if he was with Captain Edward Maitland, who was the CO of 1(Airship) Squadron RFC, and was then transferred

to the RNAS. If so ,he could have been among the crew of the Astra Torres No3 Airship, which was sent to Dunkirk in October 1914, to support No 3 Squadron

RNAS under the control of Commander Charles Rumney Samson. This would entitle him to the 1914 Star, and maybe explain the reference to Captain Maitland's

list. This info from Royal Naval Air Service 1912-1918 by Brad King.

Thanks ever so much for your post - Just knew we would get some more specialist input with the right/new improved thread title. :-)

Very interesting indeed - I wonder if/how we might perhaps clarify ??

12 hours ago, sdparker said:

On his record card, the entry Daedalus may be Cranwell.

Not my normal field at all really, have been floundering at the edge of my operational 'envelope', so didn't know that.

What went on there at that time?  Edit : This particular question seems sorted thanks to the web, see below.

Likewise, how to perhaps clarify ?? :-/

In hope ...

:-) M

 

Edit:

For you Dawn and me and likely others to boot:

From https://www.heartoflincs.com/history-of-cranwell

"History of Royal Air Force Cranwell 

Cranwell's association with aviation began during World War I. The Admiralty needed to establish a series of air stations around the south and east coasts to supplement the coastguard system and to alert our shore defences against sea and air invasion. In 1915, the Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS) sought to establish a single unit at which officers and ratings could be trained to fly aeroplanes, observer kite balloons and airships.

By November 1915, the Admiralty had requisitioned some 2,500 acres of farmland at Cranwell and in the following month, construction of a hutted camp and aircraft hangars began, as well as balloon sheds. The Royal Naval Air Service Central Training Establishment Cranwell was commissioned on 1 April 1916, under the command of Commodore Godfrey M. Paine.

Cranwell later became known as HMS Daedalus. In addition to flying training and airship operations, a Boys' Training Wing was also established at Cranwell. Its task was to train Naval ratings as air mechanics and riggers.

With the amalgamation of the RNAS and the Royal Flying Corps on 1 April 1918, ownership of Cranwell was placed in the hands of the newly established RAF. The former Naval base title was replaced by the designation Royal Air Force Station Cranwell. ... ... ..."

= Again speculating: I wonder if BAB with his technical knowledge and previous operational experience might have perhaps been posted as an instructor ??

Oh, so many outstanding questions looking for more clarification and/or firmer/firm answers!

But possibly already helping to perhaps explain his eventual 1918 MiD ?? - For services in the period 1 July to 31 December 1917

[see again his LG's front page, p.5281https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30662/supplement/5281 ] 

But I guess we should not too far ahead of ourselves and the evidence so far.

I wonder if we can get hold of a detailed Despatch [though I suspect that was perhaps commonly only a term in many cases] or a nomination/commendation/citation or something like that for his MiD ??  Unfortunately I haven't a clue as to where such might be found. :-/

Edited 20 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
Edit

[sdparker]

This is proving to be a very interesting post, as it appears that Bertram may have started in the Army, and then the Airship Division of the Royal Flying Corps,

which was taken over by the Royal Navy, and became part of the Royal Naval Air Service on 1/7/1914. This, as we know was amalgamated into the RAF, along

with the RFC on 1/4/1918. 

One person who may well be able to provide more details of his service record is Horatio 2, who has excellent access to Royal Navy and RNAS records.

I hope this will send him a notification alert.

Looking at the list for awards in The London Gazette, I think it unlikely, that you will find anything specific, relating to a deed or action for him, unfortunately,

but you never know!

However, concerning the story Dawn's grandfather was told about crashing in the Irish Sea, I have found this-

In Voices in Flight The Royal Naval Air Service During The Great War by Malcolm Smith

There are the recollections of Air Mechanic 1st class A H Gamble presumably from the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton

He was part of an airship crew, based at Milford Haven, whose job was to patrol the Irish Sea and St George's Channel, looking for German U boats.

One day they had a leak of cooling water from the radiator, and had to descend onto the sea, to carry out a repair, and refill the radiator with sea water.

The sea was choppy, and as they were repairing the water hose, a patrol boat appeared, and a dingy was launched, and rowed over to them by several

sailors. Gamble says the sailors rowed with such gusto, that they nearly cut the airship in half!

In order to re ascend, they had to jettison one of their bombs. This incident was just off the Southern Irish coast, and may be the one, and as so often

happens, memories can vary and become inaccurate over the course of time!

Regards

Geoff

[horatio2]

Looking at Bagnall’s ADM 188 record of service in the RNAS, I can see no evidence that he was previously in the RFC. On the face of it he joined the RNAS on 9 Sep 1914 direct from his civilian occupation as an electrical instrument fitter. The record makes no mention of counting previous army service.

Previous army service would have been entered on the Engagement (= attestation) Form which he signed on joining the RNAS. Unfortunately, his Engagement was passed over to the RAF in April 1918 and the RAF later destroyed all such documents for former RNAS men.

Initial training was probably at Eastchurch but he was borne on the books of pay bases at, first, HMS PEMBROKE III at Chatham and, from 1 April 1915, HMS PRESIDENT II in London. It is unlikely that he ever visited either base in person.

From 9 April 1915, until transfer to the RAF, he served as POM and CPO3 at RNAS Kingsnorth. While serving there he was borne on the books of PRESIDENT II and, from 1 July 1917, on the books of HMS DAEDALUS. DAEDALUS was an RNAS pay and admin office (holding the accounts of Kingsnorth and several other RNAS bases) which was an old 19th C floating hulk at Chatham. DAEDALUS was not at Lee-on-Solent, nor at Cranwell (although it did carry Cranwell’s accounts). Again he probably never visited either and he did not serve at Cranwell.

Well over four hundred RNAS men went over to France and Belgium in Sep/Oct 1914. Bagnall was, as noted, entitled to the 1914 Star and Clasp for service with Kite Balloon Section & Balloon Observation Detachment landed at Dunkirk on 14th October to spot for RN monitors bombarding German positions in Belgium. He is not among those named as serving with HM Airship No.3, as suggested, nor, incidentally, was Wing Commander MAITLAND who is listed with the Balloon Detachment and, presumably, raised the Balloon Detachment list for the 1914 Star.

 

His MiD for RNAS service in late 1917 is probably of the “well done thou good and faithful servant” variety and not linked to any single event. His death of pneumonia in November 1918 could well be linked to the Spanish flu epidemic.

 

That’s my take on his records.

[DBAhmed]

Great information thank you 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, sdparker said:

This is proving to be a very interesting post, as it appears that Bertram may have started in the Army, and then the Airship Division of the Royal Flying Corps,

which was taken over by the Royal Navy, and became part of the Royal Naval Air Service on 1/7/1914. This, as we know was amalgamated into the RAF, along

with the RFC on 1/4/1918. 

One person who may well be able to provide more details of his service record is Horatio 2, who has excellent access to Royal Navy and RNAS records.

I hope this will send him a notification alert.

I've certainly found it interesting.

Not sure of your source for this possible Army/RFC start, but perhaps a further/early twist to the tale.

This should attract @horatio2 

Hoping for more!

1 hour ago, sdparker said:

Looking at the list for awards in The London Gazette, I think it unlikely, that you will find anything specific, relating to a deed or action for him, unfortunately,

but you never know!

Got to say that in my gut I rather suspect it was for general good service rather than a deed.

But as you say - Who knows?

Just [!] saving a balloon or airship from disaster on a windy day, or the like, would likely be enough to get you a MiD, or potentially more 

[See also Ramsey, John Robert. 3 (later Capt) and the "Nulli Secundus" and a pre-war incident - from another thread I got involved with - again involving airships https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/286965-capt-john-robert-ramsay-mc-rfc Thanks to @PRC for that particular nugget]

Still looking for BAB!

 

1 hour ago, sdparker said:

In Voices in Flight The Royal Naval Air Service During The Great War by Malcolm Smith

There are the recollections of Air Mechanic 1st class A H Gamble presumably from the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton

He was part of an airship crew, based at Milford Haven, whose job was to patrol the Irish Sea and St George's Channel, looking for German U boats.

One day they had a leak of cooling water from the radiator, and had to descend onto the sea, to carry out a repair, and refill the radiator with sea water.

The sea was choppy, and as they were repairing the water hose, a patrol boat appeared, and a dingy was launched, and rowed over to them by several

sailors. Gamble says the sailors rowed with such gusto, that they nearly cut the airship in half!

In order to re ascend, they had to jettison one of their bombs. This incident was just off the Southern Irish coast, and may be the one, and as so often

happens, memories can vary and become inaccurate over the course of time!

Great story.

Can't imagine that such incidents were particularly rare given that particular stage of aviation - probably less traumatic than a similar problem/engine stopping for a fixed wing aircraft

- but still very interesting.

Continuing looking regardless.

Great the way this thread has developed [including in a wider way - especially as I have just followed up that book title and several others that then come from it too = brilliant!] - just seems to keep on giving great stuff. :-) 

Fingers crossed for future developments ...

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

31 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

That’s my take on his records.

Missed your earlier/recent post.

Cutting to the chase - Thanks for your knowledgeable interpretation.

:-) M

[horatio2]

I cannot see it mentioned before but the RAF Muster Roll for 1 April 1918 shows Bagnall transferred from Chief Petty Officer 3rd Grade Engineer (Transport) RNAS to Chief Mechanic Fitter (Mechanical Transport) RAF. If he was indeed an MT Engineer in both services,it throws into question some of the earlier narrative of an exciting war flying in airships.  http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/bagnall-b.a     

An airship crewman would most likely be a Rigger (Lighter than air/airship) or a Fitter (Aero engines). Bagnall, however, appears to have been on the air station's transport crew, firmly ground-based.

Sad to be a wet blanket but this would not be the first case of wartime exploits being a figment of someone's imagination.

 

 

[DBAhmed]

Thank you for all information for my Dad. We’re  sitting here on Father’s Day reading all the post about his grandfather 

[Matlock1418]

23 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

I cannot see it mentioned before but the RAF Muster Roll for 1 April 1918 shows Bagnall transferred from Chief Petty Officer 3rd Grade Engineer (Transport) RNAS to Chief Mechanic Fitter (Mechanical Transport) RAF. If he was indeed an MT Engineer in both services,it throws into question some of the earlier narrative of an exciting war flying in airships.  http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/bagnall-b.a     

An airship crewman would most likely be a Rigger (Lighter than air/airship) or a Fitter (Aero engines). Bagnall, however, appears to have been on the air station's transport crew, firmly ground-based.

Sad to be a wet blanket but this would not be the first case of wartime exploits being a figment of someone's imagination.

The mention of the Roll and the link were in my second post! - but I did miss the MT point you have now highlighted.

We have to explore stories, and we have explored several options. Now we have another, and it seems more rooted in documented evidence.

Very good to have another set of knowledgeable fresh eyes go over things. Thanks.

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

19 minutes ago, DBAhmed said:

Thank you for all information for my Dad. We’re  sitting here on Father’s Day reading all the post about his grandfather 

I hope that recent developments aren't too disappointing.

We've explored a few options but we are where we are at present.

Quite a lot is documented fact, so you have that at least - I suggest you separate it out for clarity

Who knows what else might yet turn up in the course of time?

:-) M

Edited 20 June , 2021 by Matlock1418

[DBAhmed]

Yes Hi matlock1418 

So Grateful 

[Matlock1418]

On 15/09/2016 at 19:47, kenmorrison said:

He is named on the Letchworth War Memorial.

BAGNALL, BERTRAM ARTHUR

For memorial see:  http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Hertfordshire/Letchworth.html 

:-) M

 

Edit:

See also IWM Memorial Register - Letchworth Cross

https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/item/memorial/1168

Edited 22 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
edit

[Matlock1418]

On 15/09/2016 at 19:47, kenmorrison said:

BAGNALL, BERTRAM ARTHUR

... ... ...  husband of Eva Bagnall, of 7, Boscombe Place, Letchworth.  [Bold by Matlock1418]

Eva TURNBULL living at 7 Boscombe Place, Letchworth - 1939 Register

Image courtesy of Ancestry

Rather looks like she remarried.

And living next to a Mr James C MYNOTT - who appears in another thread on GWF https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/291512-claude-mynott/page/2/

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

A Bertram A Bagnall married an Eva Mynott in Hitchin, Hertfordshire, April Qtr, 1912 [Vol 3a, page 1425]

Rather looks like Eva and James C were related - sister & brother one might perhaps suspect.

:-) M

 

Edit:

A 1901 Census for Thriplow Cambridgeshire, does seem to likely confirm this sibling relationship - but as I'm not an experienced genealogist and we are now rather wandering off topic I am not going to explore further - OP may perhaps be able to clarify.

Edited 22 June , 2021 by Matlock1418
Edit

[DBAhmed]

That’s correct they was brother and sister great work