10th Essex Burials: 19 October 2016

[MelPack]

Two soldiers, Pte Harry Carter and Pte William Marmon of the 10th Battalion Essex Regiment who were killed in action on 22 November 1915 are to be re-buried at the Albert Communal Extension at 11.00 am on 19 October next.

 

Both soldiers were successfully identified by comparative DNA analysis.

[MelPack]

Some details on the soldiers:

 

 

 

Private Harry Carter 13392

 

10^th Battalion Essex Regiment

 

 

                                                            

 

 

Harry Carter was born in December 1894 at CanningTown in the East End of London. He was just 20 years old when killed in action with the 10^th Battalion of the Essex Regiment on 22 November 1915.

 

Harry was the second youngest of a family of nine children with three of their number dying either in infancy or early childhood. His father, Robert, along with two of Harry’s older brothers, worked as a casual day labourer in the Victoria Docks with all the precariousness of existence that entailed for the family.

 

Harry was working for an estate agent when he decided to volunteer. He enlisted in the Essex Regiment with his brother Charles, six years his senior, on 7 September 1914 at the Canning Town Public Hall on the Barking Road.

 

The two brothers were allocated the service numbers of 13392 and 13396 respectively and within days were posted to the newly created 10^th Battalion consisting of men recruited mainly from the East End and the rural parts of Essex.

 

The Battalion was eventually sent to France in July 1915 as part of the 18^th (Eastern) Division and within weeks was deployed to the frontline previously held by the French Army on the Somme. The unit had its first experiences of both trench and mining warfare at Maricourt before being redeployed to Albert and La Boisselle where it remained for the rest of the winter.

 

La Boisselle (known to the French, German and British armies as L’îlot, Granathof and Glory Hole respectively) had been bitterly fought over during September 1914. With the French and German forces fixed at a standstill at close quarters, each side resorted to prolific mine warfare to gain a marginal advantage over the other. When the British forces took over La Boisselle, the mining continued apace but at even greater depths.

 

In the early hours of the morning of 22 November 1915, Harry was in the frontline with William Marmon and six other comrades as a group of bombers. At 1.35 am the enemy detonated a mine that also ignited a British mine being prepared in close proximity. The explosion was enormous and, according to the Battalion’s War Diary, it was of such force that it ‘filled dugouts for about 50 yards and completely obliterated the front face of the Ilot’.

 

Until the remains of Harry and William were recovered during an archaeological excavation at La Boisselle, it was believed that they were buried in a collective grave in the AlbertCommunalExtensionCemetery. It now appears that in the postwar period, the IWGC may have mistaken a memorial marker left by the Battalion, for those whose bodies were never recovered, as confirmation of an actual collective grave rather than the commemoration it signified. The marker recorded the names of thirteen of the Battalion’s number killed on various dates at La Boisselle including the eight killed on 22 November 1915.

 

Charles Carter continued to serve with the Battalion after Harry’s death but only survived his brother by a further eight months. Charles died of wounds sustained at Delville Wood during the Battle of the Somme on 22 July 1916 and is buried in the CorbieCommunalExtensionCemetery.

 

 

 

 

Edited 10 September , 2016 by MelPack

[MelPack]

Private William James Marmon 13370

 

10^th Battalion Essex Regiment

 

 

                                                          

 

 

William James Marmon was born on 25 April 1894 at Holborn, London. He was just 21 years of age when he was killed in action with the 10^th Battalion Essex Regiment on 22 November 1915.

 

William was the only son and the eldest of four children of Albert and Mary Marmon. His father originated from the small village of Hartpury in Gloucestershire and had migrated to London in the late 1880s to escape rural poverty. William’s parents married in 1893 and his mother died suddenly in January 1911 at a time when his youngest sister, Louisa, then aged nine, was still at school.

 

The family moved across the city from Holborn to West Ham in 1899 living first in the Forest Gate area before settling in CanningTown. William’s father managed to retain regular employment as a labourer in the East End brewery of Mann, Crossman & Paulin.

 

Upon leaving school, William managed to secure a prized apprenticeship with the prestigious book publishing firm of Eyre & Spottiswood as an electrotype setter.  His trade involved duplicating media such as woodcuts by a thin galvanic deposit of copper on metal sheets to reproduce images for publishing.

 

When war broke out, William resisted the exhortations of his employer to join the 6^th Battalion London Regiment (City of London Rifles) known as the ‘Printers’ Battalion’ with which the firm had had links since the creation of a Volunteer Force in the 1860s. Instead, he opted to enlist in the Essex Regiment on the very same day that Harry Carter joined.

 

It is possible that William’s decision was prompted by local ties and friendship. William and Harry may have known each other before their soldiering days given that they were of the same age and lived in CanningTown. What is certain, however, is that having enlisted in the Essex Regiment, they underwent training together, they served together in the same Platoon at the front and they died together, side by side, when the massive explosion ripped through the Ilot in the early hours of 22 November 1915.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 10 September , 2016 by MelPack

[MelPack]

A little feature on the relatives published in the Royal Anglian's August newsletter following their meeting with the JCCC and CWGC on 17 August last:

 

 

http://20160524-R ANGLIAN News Aug 16 - Royal Anglian Regiment www.royalanglianregiment.com/LiteratureRetrieve.aspx?ID=141113

 

[Joseph Kerr1]

Do you know if they are going to bury the remains under the headstones naming Harry Carter and William Marmon which have been in Albert ComCem Extension since the 1920s or are they going to admit that this group of headstones never had burials under them????????????

J.

 

[MelPack]

Joseph

 

I believe that the re-burials will be entirely different plots to the collective 'grave'.

 

I also believe that the collective headstones are to be amended to remove the names of Carter and Marmon in time for the burials so that the glaring anomaly  of having two headstones in the same cemetery for each of the  soldiers will be removed.

 

I suspect that burial in the existing plot was never considered an option - although the evidence strongly suggests that the original plot was some form of collective memorial, the risk of disturbing possible remains is not one that would be countenanced.

[MelPack]

Joseph

 

On reflection I think some caution needs to be applied to your contention that 'this group of headstones never had burials under them'

 

There are five other soldiers listed on the collective grave killed on dates different to 22 November 1915. There is no information as to whether their bodies were recovered for burial or not.

 

As for the 22 November men, the evidence (as presented) strongly suggests that remains of the other six men are located at La Boisselle but absent the recovery of any such remains, it is not possible to be categorical that they rest there or in what numbers.

 

The only thing that is absolutely certain is that Harry Carter and William Marmon were not buried in the collective grave.

 

It is always important to avoid hyperbole in these matters

[MelPack]

CWGC confirmation:

 

Burial Services in France

13 September 2016

Full ceremonial burials will be held for Private Harry Carter and Private William James Marmon 10^th Battalion Essex Regiment at 1100 hours on 19 October 2016 at Albert Communal Cemetery Extension, France with D Company the Royal Anglian Regiment providing support. Privates Carter and Marmon were both 21 years old when they were killed in action on 22 November 1915 following the explosion of a German underground mine in the Somme village of La Boisselle.

The Ministry of Defence’s Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre (JCCC) traced the soldiers’ nearest living relatives and determined their identities through the use of DNA. The service has been organised by JCCC and will be attended by family members, British Defence Staff, regimental representatives and local dignitaries.

[Joseph Kerr1]

On ‎13‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 12:43, MelPack said:

 

The only thing that is absolutely certain is that Harry Carter and William Marmon were not buried in the collective grave.

 

hi Mel

Not the only thing that is “absolutely certain”. It is also absolutely certain that there have been headstones in Albert CCE and entries in the cemetery registers since the 1920s showing Harry Carter and William Marmon to be buried under those headstones when they never were. That’s another “absolutely certain” fact.

 

From what I’ve been told that’s the thin end of the wedge as far as what you call the “collective 'grave' “ is concerned and its been suggested that there are quite a few people out there who already know that.

cheers

J.

 

[MelPack]

2 hours ago, Joseph Kerr1 said:

From what I’ve been told that’s the thin end of the wedge as far as what you call the “collective 'grave' “ is concerned and its been suggested that there are quite a few people out there who already know that.

 

That comment is impenetrable. Would you mind providing clarification?

[Joseph Kerr1]

21 hours ago, MelPack said:

 

That comment is impenetrable. Would you mind providing clarification?

The statement seems clear enough to me however we’ll indulge the shadow-boxing. The fact that Harry Carter and William Marmon and others were almost certainly not buried in any so called collective grave at Albert CCE has been ‘very strongly suspected - known’ for a long time. There are some very simple clues here which take that proposal well beyond the CWGC criteria of ‘clear and convincing evidence’ which was established some time ago. What has happened with Harry Carter and William Marmon is that the CWGC have been forced to capitulate in the face of overwhealming and irrefutable evidence and are now trying to make the best of a bad job by throwing a fog cloud round what is happening with Harry Carter and William Marmon. The question of how these men came to be on headstones at Albert CCE for nearly 100 yrs is being completely blanked from top to bottom including by you.

 

Will you now explain how Harry Carter and William Marmon came to be on these headstones at Albert CCE and at the same time will you also explain why the Harry Carter and William Marmon explanation might NOW be claimed to be somehow different from the other men named on those stones in row da?

[MelPack]

I am unconvinced that your latest post is any more coherent than your original proposition for which I sought clarification.

 

The idea that the CWGC has been forced to 'capitulate'  and there is a concerted attempt to create a conspiritorial 'fog cloud' is clearly absurd. The plain fact is that the post war clearances and concentrations conducted by the GRUs, almost a hundred years past, worked on imperfect information and in difficult circumstances so it is hardly surprising that errors were made.

 

You are not, nor are Dan Brown's Illuminati, nor any other group of self appointed know-alls on matters Western Front, in a position to make a determination with supporting evidence as to who or who is not buried in the collective grave. The figure could be from nought to eleven and any number in between.

 

I repeat that the only certainty is that Harry Carter and William Marmon were not buried in the collective grave by reason of their successful identification through compartive DNA analysis.

 

I have offered one possible explanation to account for the mis-attribution of their last resting place - namely that some form of collective memorial may have been mistaken as confirmation of actual burial - but that is entirely speculative.

 

Edited 18 September , 2016 by MelPack

[Joseph Kerr1]

On ‎18‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 11:18, MelPack said:

................ Dan Brown's Illuminati ..group of self appointed know-alls

Cheers

Your opinions are noted.

You’ll probably hear of any developments as and when.

J.

[MelPack]

Joseph

 

It is always an enormous pleasure to reciprocate in pearl casting. I am deeply honoured that my opinions have been noted.

 

Pending further revelations on your part, it is worth pointing out the mis-attribution of the burial place of Harry Carter and William Marmon is far from unique. Exactly the same issues arose in the Fromelles project where remains recovered from Pheasant Wood were successfully identified in spite of the soldiers already having graves bearing their names.

 

You may find reading about the cases of  Albert Ernest Pratt and Robert Grieve Moncrieff Scott, on the thread below, rewarding:

 

[MelPack]

By way of response to an off Board enquiry, I  can confirm that in the case of William Marmon, the common ancestor betwwen the soldier and the living DNA donor was born in 1782.

 

In this instance, it is quite remarkable that the YSTR provided a positive identification given the time and generational span over nearly 250 years and the issues of mutation and false paternity that are associated with Y Line.

 

... and whilst we are on the matter of the tracing of DNA compatible donors in the identification process, it really is time that a certain Group withdraws its utterly shameless claim of responsibility for the same.

Edited 18 October , 2016 by MelPack

[MelPack]

An article concerning the pending burials:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3840976/Bodies-two-British-WWI-heroes-finally-buried-Somme-cemetery-discovered-dugout-100-years-killed.html

[MelPack]

Unusally, the CWGC have already published photographs of the new headstones:

 

 

[MelPack]

A couple of reports here with depressingly inevitable publicity plugs:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/18/british-soldiers-to-be-laid-to-rest-after-century-of-wrongly-marked-grave

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/722776/First-World-War-soldiers-graves-wrongly-marked-finally-laid-rest

[MelPack]

BBC coverage with some photographs of the burial:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-37701909

[MelPack]

and more photographs here:

 

http://www.ardrossanherald.com/news/14811029.WWI_soldiers_whose_graves_were_wrongly_marked_laid_to_rest_with_military_honours/

[CGM]

Essex Regiment Museum receives artefacts from Battle of Somme

 

 

The 100-year anniversary of the Battle of the Somme was marked in a unique way at the Essex Regiment Museum, Chelmsford, on 30 November by the donation of recently discovered personal effects of two servicemen who died during the battle.

 

The two soldier’s bodies and personal possessions were recently discovered during an archaeological dig exploring the World War I battlefield at La Boiselle on the Somme.  The remains of their uniforms identified them as belonging to the 10th Battalion the Essex Regiment, which lost eight men on 22 November 1915. Subsequent DNA analysis identified the remains as Privates Harry Carter and William Marmon - who were both only 21 when they died.

 

The archaeologists also recovered their personal possessions, and these were returned to the families of the soldiers by the Ministry of Defences’ Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre, who subsequently led the work to identify them, trace their families and arranged their full service funeral in October 2016............continues 

 

The full article can be seen by clicking on the link in the title. Edit: see below for new link as above link is broken

 

A display of some of the personal effects and letters home, made available by the families, will be mounted at the Essex Regiment Museum.

 

CGM 

 

New link as old link broken

Edited 9 March , 2017 by CGM