laughton Posted 6 September , 2016 Share Posted 6 September , 2016 (edited) http://laughton.ca/reports/Lieutenants (2) Clark and Noon Tyne Cot British Cemetery Plot 59 Row D Grave 46 %26 47.pdf Dear CWGC: (commemorations@cwgc.org) We are pleased to provide our report on the two (2) RAF Lieutenants which we have confidence are those identified as being buried in Tyne Cot British Cemetery, Plot 59 Row D Grave 46 & 47. The majority of the reports from the Canadians refer to Canadian soldiers and some aviators, however as we progress through our research we at times come across those of other nationalities. In this particular case, our research team involved members from the UK, Belgium and Canada. The pilot was South African, thus we had Ralph McLean of the South Africa War Graves Project review the report as well. Luc Degrande, with his excellent knowledge of the cemeteries and burial records in Belgium has become an integral member of the team. As always, if we are dealing with the “Aviators” then there is no better resource than UK Member Trevor Henshaw. We have based our report format on that which was developed to comply with the requirements set out for Canadian reports to the CWGC Agency in Ottawa. We have recently upgraded that format to include the additional “reference documentation” that the CWGC provided directly to Luc Degrande. You will note that as a result of this change, each of the attachments has the detailed reference of that information source at the top of the page. Each attachment is numbered to match the paragraph numbers in the written report. I do not believe there is any doubt about the identification of this Pilot and his Observer, but as always we remain open to any questions and/or comments. If you require additional supporting information, we would be most happy to do what we can to respond to your requests. Thank you for taking the time to review our submission, as well as for all of what the CWGC does to remember our fallen. With Best Regards from the International Team, Richard Laughton Canadian Expeditionary Force Study Grouphttp://cefresearch.ca copies: Trevor Henshaw Luc Degrande Ralph McLean Edited 4 January , 2017 by laughton updated link for final report download Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 6 September , 2016 Share Posted 6 September , 2016 Richard Many thanks for posting the report - an impressive piece of research by any standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickaren Posted 6 September , 2016 Share Posted 6 September , 2016 Richard, Great work by you and the team. well done. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 16 September , 2016 Author Share Posted 16 September , 2016 A pleasant reply from the CWGC, they approve of the report format as well: From: David AverySent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 5:24 AMTo: Richard LaughtonCc: Trevor Henshaw; Luc Degrande; Ralph McLeanSubject: CWGC ID Case No. 292: Lieutenants (2) Clark and Noon Tyne Cot British Cemetery Plot 59 Row D Grave 46 & 47 Dear Richard and to all members of the International Team, Thank you for your email and case submission received on 6th September. Please be aware that I have logged this case into the system and allocated it the reference; Identification Case No. 292. I will review your findings in due course and will of course be in touch again when this is completed, which, as I am sure you can appreciate may take some time. Once again, thank you for your efforts on creating a report format that is to be commended and in line with Commission guidelines. Kind regards & best wishes, David David AveryCommemorations Officer Commonwealth War Graves Commission 2 Marlow Road, Maidenhead, Berkshire, SL6 7DX, United Kingdom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 16 September , 2016 Share Posted 16 September , 2016 Great work, Richard. I have a case just behind you in the queue (295)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 16 September , 2016 Author Share Posted 16 September , 2016 (edited) Thanks Chris, I did not know you were doing UNKNOWNS? Are you seeking them or just doing them if they come along? We are happy to share the ones that we stumble across for the British forces, as we have lots to do with the Canadians. We would also welcome your review and critique of anything we write. As you know, I don't have the background on the British forces that you have (or anywhere near) so I am sure you are better suited for those projects. I had thought of asking you some questions but I figured you were quite busy. To All: Anyone that wants to use the MASTER REPORT in the format that we made for our projects are welcome to do so at their convenience. You can download a copy of the current master in WORD from our web site here: http://cefresearch.ca/web/content/reports/CWGC Master Submission Form RFC to Maidenhead.docx That was based on the Canadian version, of which we have filed 53 to date since December 2014. You would need to change the title box if it was not RFC. When you get to the attachments that have the CWGC CLOUD LINKS you change the seven-digit 9999999 to whatever the file number is for that specific GRRF, COG-BR, SPECEX or HR. As always, ask any questions at any time and if you need assistance on the reporting or finding information, ask away! You can download any of the reports (ODF Format) we have written to date from this page on our MediaFire Cloud: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/8p663xg8rpo9t/F7_C1_CWGC_Reports_Submitted You can also download a list of all the reports submitted and all the links to the Social Media distribution of the material, all in one spreadsheet. It is in EXCEL and PDF at this directory: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/xih0uxlx44ao1/List_of_Reports Edited 16 September , 2016 by laughton added link to list of reports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 16 September , 2016 Share Posted 16 September , 2016 (edited) I'm not, really. I happen to have tracked down information that clearly identifies the man buried as an unknown soldier, when studying his service. It's an interesting case as most of the British records would have you believe that he simply disappeared on the Somme on a date in 1918. His death was officially registered as such. But his family received information of a quite different date and place and put it in an "In memoriam" notice in 1919 and later years ... it led me into Red Cross and German records, and then to War Graves Commission exhumations and reburials. I think it is pretty clear-cut. Once I have heard what CWGC says on the matter, I'll be adding it to LLT as a case study. Very happy to cast a fresh eye over anything where that would be helpful, Richard. Edited 16 September , 2016 by Chris_Baker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 September , 2016 Share Posted 18 September , 2016 What an excellent and inspiring piece of work! Congratulations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 2 October , 2018 Author Share Posted 2 October , 2018 (edited) @fetubi @LDT006 I have heard back from SO2 Commemorations on this case. That means it was passed at CWGC but we were never advised that had happened? They want us to track or trace ALL THE AIRCRAFT that had the number 253 in the serial number. I am not sure why that is necessary, given that Trevor has already recorded that there was only one (1) plane with those numbers lost on the western front with those numbers. Here is the letter and then the list of aircraft. I guess to start, we can eliminate any aircraft that did not hold 2 men (i.e. Bristol Scout) Comments? Allocations 1914-1916 Serial Type 253 Nieuport Monoplane 1253 Bristol Scout 2253 RE7 2531-9 BE2c/d/e 3253 Morane Parasol 4253 FE2a 5253 Caudron G.III 6253 BE2d/e 7253 BE2d/e 8253 Short 827 9253 Henry Farman Astral Prefixes 1916 onwards Serial Type A253 SPAD A1253 Henri Farman A2253 Maurice Farman Shorthorn A2531-2 Maurice Farman Shorthorn A2533-2539 Airco DH2 A3253 Nieuport Type 12 A4253 RE8 A5253 FE2b A6253 Martinsyde Elephant A7253 Bristol F2B A8253 Sopwith Strutter A9253 Airco DH5 B253 Armstrong Whitworth FK8 B1253 Bristol F2B B2253 RE8 B2531-9 Sopwith Camel B3253 Avro 504A B4253 Avro 504A/J B5253 Sopwith Pup B6253 Sopwith Camel B7253 Sopwith Camel B8253 SE5a B9253 Sopwith Camel C253 Sopwith Pup C1253 Airco DH9 C2253 RE8 C2531-9 RE8 C3253 BE12/12a/12b C4253 Sopwith Dolphin C5253 Airco DH6 C6253 Airco DH9 C7253 Airco DH6 C8253 Sopwith Camel C9253 SE5a D253 SE5a D1253 Airco DH9 D2253 Bristol F2b D2531-9 Bristol F2b D3253 Airco DH9 D4253 Martinsyde F4 Buzzard D5253 Sopwith Dolphin D6253 Avro 504a/j/k D7253 Airco DH9 D8253 Avro 504k D9253 Airco DH4 E253 RE8 E1253 SE5a E2253 Bristol F2b E2531-9 Bristol F2b E3253 SE5a E4253 Avro 504k E5253 Bristol F2b E6253 Sopwith Snipe E7253 Sopwith Camel E8253 Sopwith Snipe E9253 Avro 504k 38 a/c Edited 2 October , 2018 by laughton start to strike out single seaters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrenchrat22 Posted 2 October , 2018 Share Posted 2 October , 2018 Richard thank you for the update on this case. As you said remove all the single seaters and see what is left. If they want to know the fate of all the remaining aircraft i.e. survived, damaged beyond repair etc. Then I think it’s the only way to go. But if they gave you a list of all the aircraft with the number of 253, then they should have all the details of what happened to the said aircrafts. I would like to read the views of Trevor and Luc. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fetubi Posted 2 October , 2018 Share Posted 2 October , 2018 FACT: There was only one British aircraft lost and Missing in Action on the Western Front, with '253' in the serial, which resulted in the deaths of BOTH airmen, currently with no known grave. This was 20 Sqn's F2B A7253. Perhaps the Para in the submission should have read something more like the above.. There were four other aircraft MIA with '253' within the serial - two were single seaters but both pilots saw the War out as POWs (A2536 DH2 of 32 Sqn lost on 3 April 1917 - down south - and 56 Sqn H7253 SE5a shot down on 5 October 1918 - also down south). Note: POWs... There was a third: F2B of 22 Sqn, serial B1253 lost on 5 June 1918, - pilot was taken POW and Observer was killed, and his grave found in 1920 at Sh.36a L.25.c.2.8., east of AIRE. The fourth aircraft MIA with '253' in the serial was 48 Sqn's F2B E2532, shot down on 26th October 1918 - both crew taken POW. FACT: All the other British aircraft lost and Missing in Action on the Western Front, with '253' in the serial, are all comprehensively accounted for. None of the others involve a crew with No Known Grave. FACT: F2B A7253 does. FACT: The CWGC reply shows a critical lack of understanding of the whole Air War. If they seriously believe Avro 504s and DH6s, and virtually all other aircraft on that list - most being single seaters for a start, or being types that never remotely saw action on the Western Front, let alone in November 1917 - if they are saying each of these need detailed elimination, then it feels hopeless to me. Those two men are who we say they are. Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fetubi Posted 2 October , 2018 Share Posted 2 October , 2018 I will do all the research on the list they have supplied - if that is what they need to be convinced, then it must be done. It will be as comprehensive as I can make it, and it will prove that 2Lts Clark and Noon have to be the two individuals in those currently unknown airmen graves. It will take a while, but it will get all the attention I can spare. Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 3 October , 2018 Author Share Posted 3 October , 2018 Trevor: Do you want to take at two phase approach with the MOD/JCCC office, a process that might save a great deal of work: Present the information, as you have above, with some basic information to eliminate a large number of the aircraft. If a better choice of words is made, rather than what I initially wrote, then maybe they will approve the case with that level of detail. At the same time, we can explain to them that any additional work will not result in any additional candidates, as your research to date is already complete. If they reject the above offer, move on to the detailed work. I should note for the record that the CWGC did not reject the report. They must have decided the case had merit, otherwise they would not have passed it on to the MOD-JCCC. There they have asked for additional information. The letter, although initially disappointing, does give the sense they want to approve this case. Greg Young and I are in the same position with Lieutenants McDonald and Wylie of the 15th Battalion CEF lost at Hill 70. They (in this case Maidenhead) want PROOF that there are no other candidate Lieutenants at any time in the war or in any place in France. That means I have had to go back and account for every missing Officer. As with this case, it adds nothing as a Lieutenant lost at Courcelette in 1916 has nothing to due with a Lieutenant lost at Lens in 1917. Frustrating, agreed, but left with no option but to do as they ask. In the end I hope that after a few cases they will see that the work is very thorough and they will cut back on their requests. I can understand why they ask, as they DO NOT have the level of knowledge and experience that we, that are doing this work, have gained. The most recent requests from the CWGC and MOD do appear to have altered the requirements for the reports that was initially established. In the past, there was not a requirement to eliminate all other candidates persons, only to prove that the proposed candidate was correct. Although we did take the approach to eliminate any likely candidate we did not eliminate all persons, other than by relying on the information available. My thought is that if there is no reason that another person should be a candidate, why does he have to be eliminated? Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fetubi Posted 3 October , 2018 Share Posted 3 October , 2018 At work - haven't had time to read all this - but I am determined to do the data approach now - comes to 115 a'c after you expand out all their groups of serials... I began it last night, into the early hours. Obviously, I am eliminating the 36 or so single-seaters on their list, explaining obviously why... I've decided to do this, as I feel very confident it will absolutely nail the questions for us. Especially if we also submit it back with an agreed updated phrasing, saying what we meant. The other reason is that I feel I've let those two lads down a bit! When I'm done I will despatch my spreadsheet to you, for comment/forwarding. I'm of a mind to get on with it with haste (but scrupulous accuracy!) I will read your email in more depth tonight. Know that I will help you any way I can. Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 7 October , 2018 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2018 Thanks to some fantastic and very timely work by Trevor, the report has been amended and submitted back to the MOD-JCCC with all the additional details they requested. For anyone with an interest, the amended report is now posted: 2nd Lieutenants (2) Clark and Noon Tyne Cot British Cemetery Plot 59 Row D Grave 46 & 47.pdf The changes are in bullet #3, which resulted in the addition of the new summary table in Attachment #3b. A notice about the amendment was also included in the revised report. The review by the MOD-JCCC is valuable in that it provides us with additional insight into what they will want to see in our reports. It requires an emphasis on providing conclusive evidence that there are no other candidates. In this case, it was my oversight in the way that I wrote the initial report that I did not explicitly state the following: To have both a pilot and an observer recovered, it meant that this was not a single seater aircraft. The remains were recovered in Belgium, with the aircraft, so that excludes any that crashed in France, England, South Africa, Middle East, etc. Two bodies were recovered, so that excludes any aircraft where one or both of the men survived, or where they were taken POW and repatriated. The wreckage of the plane was recovered with the bodies and identified with a partial serial "253", so that excludes any plane that was recovered and returned to base or scraped as a result of a crash. All of the conditions had to be met for it to be proven that these were the only candidates. The only fear I have now is that they may ask for copies of all the original documents that were used to prepare the summary table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 8 October , 2018 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2018 Tracey responds with a more detailed clue as to the process: Quote Good Morning Richard, Thank you for your email and all the additional information within to support the Rededication case you have submitted. I will inform the CWGC that I will forward this information to The Air Historical Branch (RAF) as the service authorities for this case and JCCC will then re-adjudicate. I will be back in touch. Kind regards & best wishes back to Canada Tracey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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