calibre792x57.y Posted 25 July , 2016 Share Posted 25 July , 2016 (edited) At a request I post these items from my small collection. The first pair are both British. I am no expert on woods so perhaps a reader can tell what they are. The lighter one was one of a pair I bought back in the 'Eighties. They were both then in pristine condition and very pale as they came from a house clearance in Berkshire and had been in the bottom of a blanket box. When I sold off my collection one went to another collector and the other was sold to a dealer. The latter decided it didn't look old enough so he oiled it and knocked it about a bit! I later bought it back a few years ago.. It is a standard British pattern of the GW. with triple boot studs, horseshoe nails and lead loaded. The other is a 'Harrods' version of the issue British club and was probably made by someone who made police truncheons as the finish is almost too good to take to war!. Unless otherwise stated the bootlace loops are to suspend the club on a wall display. The leather wrist loop on the 'Harrods' model is period. -SW Edited 25 July , 2016 by calibre792x57.y Add info. and clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 25 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2016 The next pair are both German. The one with the cast iron socket forming a head for the shaft seems to be the most common and several of these are in collections that I know. .But beware; because there are fakes of this pattern on the market, fortunately the faker's research isn't very good and the fakes are easily distinguished when compared with the real thing. The 'morning star' is a cast steel ball with five rudimentary spikes, attached to a steel spring and fitted with a turned wood handle. Examples are marked with the maker's identity on the ball and the wrist strap which is missing on this example. - 'FKG 202' for F. Kottenhof, Gevelsberg, in the Ruhr industrial area. The significance of the number is not known to me.- SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 25 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2016 The last pair, the upper club is clearly a one-off; carved from a piece of oak and shaped by hand. The body has several rows of an unusual type of boot-studs and a 11mm steel rod pushed down the centre. This terminates in a square section point forming a spike about 8cms long. It obviously has some age and from the rust on the spike I think this might be from one of the smaller wire pickets. . Italian or French? Unless someone can identify the studs as belonging to a particular army we won't know. The lower club is again a standard,but uncommon, German club, possibly Bavarian as there is one in their State Army Museum. This example has been nickel plated, probably as a souvenir. SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian J Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 What brutal examples! Thanks for posting Calibre! - J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 Very nice examples. Note that any Trench Club marked with a regimental name is likely to be fake. All the genuine British ones I have seen are unmarked. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 26 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 26 July , 2016 Yes, along with Broad Arrows and dates, an indication of a fake. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 27 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 27 July , 2016 Two of the clubs are shown in a lift from the forum (sorry, I can't recall which member sent the original post, but I'm grateful.) Taken at the Bavarian Arm,y Museum but I am far from sure that the Bavarians were necessarily the users. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 1 August , 2016 Share Posted 1 August , 2016 Excellent examples, thanks for posting them. Could the upper of the third pair be converted from an Indian club? I have one each of the top two types. Here is my example of the first type. It's the only one I've ever seen with any kind of personalised touch. The apparent "ox blood" colour is not present in real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 2 August , 2016 Author Share Posted 2 August , 2016 Hi, Wainfleet. Looking again I would say that the digits on your club have a continental look, so not British? No, my club is not turned, it is hand carved and shaped and is actually somewhat oval in cross-section. The studs are now believed to be period French military Boot-nails. The spike is probably from one of the small screw-pickets also used by the French Army. - Long time since Douggy had a meeting. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 2 August , 2016 Share Posted 2 August , 2016 6 hours ago, calibre792x57.y said: Hi, Wainfleet. Looking again I would say that the digits on your club have a continental look, so not British? No, my club is not turned, it is hand carved and shaped and is actually somewhat oval in cross-section. The studs are now believed to be period French military Boot-nails. The spike is probably from one of the small screw-pickets also used by the French Army. - Long time since Douggy had a meeting. - SW It is indeed - I spoke to him the other day and hopefully something can get off the ground this summer. The 7s on my club may appear crossed but that effect is due to a line in the grain of the wood. Despite the apparent similarity of the nails to German bootnails (which are in fact slightly larger) I have always believed this type of club to be one of the few standard British patterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trench club Posted 13 March , 2018 Share Posted 13 March , 2018 (edited) Hello: A new reference book was just released 2018, actually it is the second in the series on the trench club. You might find the answers to your questions in that new book. I found this email address on another webpage. david.machnicki@gmail.com Best of luck, trench club Edited 13 March , 2018 by trench club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 9 April , 2018 Share Posted 9 April , 2018 here are mine trunch clubs, both are austrian, found in italy during my trip there on 2009 and bought together [treviso area]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 9 April , 2018 Share Posted 9 April , 2018 and some more, from my small collection on ww1 trench clubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 9 April , 2018 Share Posted 9 April , 2018 (edited) Greetings Dimitrios, You have posted some lovely Austrian examples. Thank you, for sharing examples from your collection. Below are a few of my German and Austrian variants. Best, Lance Edited 10 April , 2018 by militariaone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 10 April , 2018 Share Posted 10 April , 2018 SOME MORE SPECIMENTS FROM MY COLLECTION, BY DIFFERENT AUSTRIAN TRENCH MACES AND CLUBS. ALL FOUND IN TREVISO AREA. REGARDS D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 10 April , 2018 Share Posted 10 April , 2018 Greetings Dimitrios, Hmmmnnnn, personally speaking too many of your cable clubs' handles match up in construction styles between pear/cube shapes (the handles should differ in shape between those two types) and too, they all possess the same matching level of patina. Someone does very good work, they are a borderline artist, but I don't believe those clubs are contemporary to WWI. I'd hate for this thread to be turned into a proof of originality's thread for future sales involving those clubs without too some reasonable doubt added for a potential mark to be warned off on. And too, that then draws the others similar styles/patina into question as well. I'm not looking for a fight, or drama, but I'm not going to act like I don't see what I can clearly see either. V/r Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 10 April , 2018 Share Posted 10 April , 2018 HELLO LANCE THIS WAS ALSO THE DISCUSSION I HAD WITH DAVID MACHNICKI, ABOUT THE CABLE [ELASTICA] CLUBS. SAME DOUBTS ABOUT THE PATINA ON THEM BUT...I GOT THEM FROM A HOTEL WHICH WAS CLOSING, CAUSE A DEMOLUTION OF IT, AND THEY WERE SOLD ALL TOGETHER [AND THE 4 OF THEM]. SO, MY FRIEND WHO IS LIVING IN TRENTO AREA, BOUGHT THEM ALL THE 4 TOGETHER FOR ME. THEY WERE EXPOSED TO THIS HOTEL FROM 1950, WITH HELMETS, BAYONETS, BINOCULARS ETCH. ALL STUFF WERE ORIGINALS. FROM TOTAL 7 ELASTICA CLUBS, THE HOTEL OWNER KEPT 3 FOR HIMSELF AND SOLD THE OTHER 4. HAVING THEM TO MY HANDS, I CHECK THEM, ACCORDING DAVID'S INSTRUCTIONS. THE CABLE IS GOING ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE HANDLE, TO ALL 4 THE CABLES OF THE CUBE CLUBS, ARE THE 1ST OK, THE SECOND FROZEN. THE PEAR HEAD CLUBS ARE OK. THE PEAR HEAD CLUBS, ARE A LITTLE LARGER THAN THE CUBE HEAD CLUBS. AND MORE HEAVIER. THE RUST IS NOT THE SAME IN ALL THE CLUBS, BUT FROM PHOTOS YOU CANNOT SAY. ONLY IF YOU GET THEM AT YOUR HANDS. ALSO, I WEIGHT THEM, AND ARE IDENTICAL WITH OTHER ELASTICA TRENCH CLUBS I HAVE BOUGHT FROM ITALY AND ARE SURELY ORIGINALS. EXACTLY 550 GRAMMS EACH [THE PEAR HEADS] AND 49 CM EACH. YOU ARE CORRECT TO MENTION YOUR DOUBTS. AFTER ALL, WE ARE COLLECTORS AND WE WANT TO GET ONLY ORIGINAL ITEMS. I HAVE DOUBTS ONLY FOR THE CUBE HEAD CLUB, WHICH IS FROZEN ON CABLE, AS THIS IS NOT EXPLAINED, ACCORDING THR OTHER 3 CLUBS. ALL THE BEST TO ALL D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 10 April , 2018 Share Posted 10 April , 2018 Greetings Dimitrios, Like the old saying goes "buy the item not the story." If you are happy with them then all is well and what I think/believe is completely irrelevant. For me, the first flag is when someone informs me about an item I am interested in purchasing is that they have owned it for 30+ years or they purchased it directly from a veteran who brought it back from the "war." Yes, both explanations are quite plausible, but both have become quite cliche too. Basically, when I see a unicorn that is pretty neat and rare. When I see a unicorn riding a rainbow, I still wish to believe, but when I see a unicorn riding a rainbow in the middle of a thunderstorm; even I recognize something is not quite right. Again Dimitrios, if you like them and believe the accompanying story about them to be true then that is all that matters. However, when those club's clones are up for auction a few weeks from now, I'll retain my doubts about their originality. Additionally, if David M. questioned them then well, need I say more? Best, Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 10 April , 2018 Share Posted 10 April , 2018 LANCE, LET ME CLEAR SOMETHING. I AM NOT SELLING ANYTHING, NEITHER I KNOW HOW YOU MADE THIS. THE ITEMS ARE ONLY FOR ME AND MY PASSION. AFTER MY DEATH, IF MY CHILDREN WANT TO SELL THEM, IS OK, I WILL BE DEAD, SO NO STRESS AT ALL FOR ME. YES, I AGREE, THE STORIES ARE ALWAYS RINGING A BELL. BUT...IN THIS CASE, THERE WAS A PHOTO FROM 1952, WITH THE OWNER OF THE HOTEL WITH THE 7 CLUBS AND OTHER MILITARIA, ON HIS HOTEL WALL. WHEN YOU GET FROM YOUR HOTEL 5.800.000 EUROS, YOU DO NOT NEED 600 EUROS FOR 4 CLUBS. HE SOLD THEM TO MY FRIEND, WHO IS THE ARCHITECT OF THE NEW BUILDING. SOME STORIES ARE TRUE, MOST ARE FAKES, BUT EVEN OUR FINGERS ARE NOT THE SAME. DAVID IS A GREAT TEACHER AND HE POINTED TO ME WHAT TO SEARCH ON THEM, AS I DID. I HAVE DOUBTS ON WHY ONLY 1 CLUB HAS FROZEN THE CABLE AND NOT THE OTHER 3. THIS IS THE ONLY DOUBT I HAVE FOR THE ONE CLUB. ALL THE BEST D. P.S. UNICORN???? I LIKE TO GET A FARM WITH UNICORNS!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 10 April , 2018 Share Posted 10 April , 2018 Greetings Dimitrios, Excellent, to hear you are keeping them all:-) Any chance you could post the former hotel's owner's photo for us to view and enjoy too? V/r Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 10 April , 2018 Share Posted 10 April , 2018 LANCE SINCE I DID NOT INVOLVE MYSELF ON THIS DEAL, BUT MY BEST MEN AND FRIEND WHO IS LIVING IN ITALY AS AN ARCHITECT, I HAVE TO SEND HIM AN EMAIL ABOUT. PLEASE LET ME KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT. OR BEST, I WILL SEND YOU HIS EMAIL TO TALK DIRECTLY TO HIM. IS THIS OK FOR YOU???? AND LANCE, AS YOU ARE, I AM A COLLECTOR, NOT A SELLER. I ONLY COLLECT AND AS YOU I KEEP MY ITEMS FOR ME. LAST 24 YEARS, I HAVE NOT SOLD ANYTHING, CHECK YOUR ARCHIVES ABOUT ME LANCE. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 10 April , 2018 Share Posted 10 April , 2018 AND LANCE, SINCE YOU ARE REFERING ONLY FOR CABLE CLUBS, FOR THE OTHER CLUBS YOU HAVE NOTHING TO SAY, CORRECT???? ALSO, DO YOU WANT TO TRY TO POST ONE CABLE CLUB FOR YOU TO EXAMINE IT??? HOW THIS SOUND TO YOU??? D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 10 April , 2018 Share Posted 10 April , 2018 Greetings Dimitrios, Many apologies, I assumed you owned a copy of the discussed image. There's no need for me to contact anyone, Brother. If he finds a copy, kindly post it. I bid you a friendly good night. V/r Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 10 April , 2018 Share Posted 10 April , 2018 LANCE, I AM A LITTLE ANGRY, BECAUSE I FEEL THAT SOMEONE [YOU] IS ACCUSING ME [I HAVE NOT UNDERSTAND FOR WHAT]. BUT YOU ARE NOT 100% SURE THEY ARE NOT ORIGINAL[THE CABLE CLUBS]. SO, THE BEST SOLUTION I AM PROPOSED TO YOU IS THIS I WILL SEND YOU 1 CABLE CLUB TO EXAMINE IT FROM CLOSE. AFTER THAT, WRITE YOUR OPINION ON THIS THREAD. I DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO HIDE. AND IT WILL BE GREAT TO HAVE AND YOUR OPINION, WHICH I RESPECT IT A LOT, ABOUT MY CABLE TRENCH CLUBS. REGARDS D. P.S. SORRY TO ALL FELLOW COLLECTORS ABOUT THIS ARGUE WITH LANCE. I WILL STOP TO POST ANY PHOTOS FURTHER FROM TRENCH CLUBS OR BAYONETS FROM MY COLLECTION. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 10 April , 2018 Share Posted 10 April , 2018 Greetings Dimitrios, Thank you, for the kind offer to inspect and validate one of your clubs. But I will pass. I have shared my thoughts/opinions and have obviously angered you and for that I do apologize. This is supposed to be a fun hobby and clearly, I have made it not fun with my unwanted observations. Dimitrios please, do not stop posting on my account. I will no longer make any comments on anything you care to post or share with this forum... ever. That said, if the aforementioned Hotel Owner's Trench Club photo does turn up, I would humbly request that you share it with the forum. Lastly, I too would like to apologize to any fellow forum's members I may have offended with my questionable observations. Ciao, V/r Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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