W J Petty - 15th Hants - Unknown Soldier Identified?

[Alan24]

14 minutes ago, laughton said:

Who sent the CWGC response?

David Avery.

[laughton]

That is not good news. I would have passed both your reports without question. It may be MOD turned them down and David just delivered the bad news. We should check for similar (form response) wording in other MOD reviews. If it is the same as Canada, which I understand is the case, then if London (Ottawa in Canada) does not give the green light then Maidenhead rejects the case. David would tell you if you asked. You can tell him I read your reports and found them quite convincing. They have sent me other cases to review, albeit Canadian.

 

Posted from my Blackberry

[laughton]

The only thing that was not done, which we normally include in our reports, is a list of others that could be considered and then a statement as to why none of those men appear to be candidates.  For example, in this case, is there anyone else that has a similar number that might have caused some confusion or concern?

 

I sorted those on the Thiepval memorial to look for similar numbers that could be confused with 18030, such as 18630 or 18830, as there was some markings on that number on the COG-BR. Taking that to the extreme, to make sure some are included in the evaluation, can we eliminate the three shown below in blue because they are in October and not in the same area (18000, 18803, or even 31730)?

 

If they are arguing that the personal effects were not substantial evidence then they would have to eliminate a large number of other cases. They just missed this one and now they should make the correction.

 

For the record, there are none listed on the Pozieres Memorial, which would mean remains from the Somme battlefield in March to November 1918 period. That seems to suggest, they were not there.

 

surname	forename	death	rank	affiliation	#
THORNTON	EDWARD	06-10-16	Lance Serjeant	15th Bn.	'10970'
HADDIGAN	THOMAS	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'14119'
WESTBROOK	ARTHUR R.	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'15053'
PERRY	REGINALD	15-09-16	Serjeant	15th Bn.	'17308'
MORRIS	FRANK	15-09-16	Corporal	15th Bn.	'17371'
BRYANT	WILLIAM	15-09-16	Lance Corporal	15th Bn.	'17394'
REED	CLAUD	07-10-16	Lance Serjeant	15th Bn.	'17397'
SAMPHIER	BERTIE WILLIAM	04-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'17410'
CHEESEMAN	FREDERICK	15-09-16	Corporal	15th Bn.	'17429'
JONES	HAROLD VIVIAN	07-10-16	Serjeant	15th Bn.	'17572'
BOSONNET	HENRY VICTOR	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'17592'
TARRANT	ALBERT	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'17631'
BLACKMAN	ARTHUR	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'17644'
WEBB	HENRY HARRY	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'17658'
TOLLIDAY	WILLIAM HAROLD	15-09-16	Corporal	"A" Coy. 15th Bn.	'17943'
BEW	REGINALD	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'17962'
JERVIS	HENRY ALLEN	05-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'17990'
HODGE	JAMES GEORGE	07-10-16	Lance Corporal	15th Bn.	'18000'
JAKES	GEORGE	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'18019'
PETTY	WILLIAM JAMES	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'18030'
CLARK	JOHN WILLIAM	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'18368'
LIPSCOMB	VICTOR	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'18369'
PALMER	SIDNEY CHARLES	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn	'18459'
SHRIMPTON	ROBERT STANLEY	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'18476'
DUBBER	LEONARD HENRY	06-10-16	Private	"B" Coy. 15th Bn.	'18513'
HEATH	HERBERT	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'18664'
READ	ARTHUR ERNEST	15-09-16	Corporal	15th Bn.	'18783'
HARDY	ALBERT	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'18802'
WILLIAMS	FREDERICK	07-10-16	Lance Corporal	15th Bn.	'18803'
LANGER	WALTER HERBERT	15-09-16	Serjeant	15th Bn.	'18819'
RICHARDSON	GEORGE WILLIAM	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'18832'
RUSSELL	HARRY	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'18850'
PHILLIPS	WALTER	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'18871'
KIMBER	THOMAS	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'19203'
LOVELL	THOMAS EDWIN	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'19251'
NEWMAN	CHARLES	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'19255'
DUGGAN	THOMAS	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'19283'
SALTER	HERBERT	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'19292'
PILE	WILLIAM	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'19384'
LONGLEY	WILLIAM	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'19403'
MALLETT	HENRY	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'19593'
WHEWAY	CYRIL WILLIAM	04-10-16	Private	"B" Coy. 15th Bn.	'19601'
GREEN	ALBERT HENRY	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'19611'
JAMES	ROBERT	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'19613'
WOLFE	BERT	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20285'
YALDEN	JAMES	15-09-16	Lance Corporal	15th Bn.	'20299'
IDE	WILLIAM THOMAS	07-10-16	Private	"D" Coy. 15th Bn.	'20396'
REES	WALTER	07-10-16	Lance Corporal	15th Bn.	'20405'
LOVELL	THOMAS	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20584'
WILDS	EDWARD	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20596'
DOLLERY	MARTIN CHARLES	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20609'
HUDSON	JAMES WILLIAM	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20612'
NEWBY	ARTHUR	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20620'
CRASSWELLER	ALFRED JOHN	07-10-16	Private	"A" Coy. 15th Bn.	'20711'
RICHARDSON	ALBERT	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20715'
GOODMAN	ARCHIBALD	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20724'
STOVOLD	FRANK	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20733'
PEIRCE	WILLIAM ALFRED	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20741'
POTTER	ALFRED	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20742'
BUTLER	FREDERICK	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20754'
KNIGHT	SIDNEY REGINALD	15-09-16	Lance Corporal	15th Bn.	'20759'
TURNER	GEORGE FRANCIS	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20791'
SOUTHWELL	WILLIAM	07-10-16	Corporal	15th Bn.	'20821'
DAVENPORT	CHARLES	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20934'
SABINE	DAVID HENRY	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20970'
JOHNSON	CHARLES	07-10-16	Private	"C" Coy. 15th Bn.	'20978'
COOK	ALFRED	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20980'
CHALMERS	GEORGE FRANCIS	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'20994'
DUGAN	WESLEY	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21042'
REDMAN	JAMES	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21046'
PIKE	JOHN	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21052'
FORD	PERCY WILLIAM	04-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21076'
HAWKINS	WILLIE HENRY	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21080'
SOFTLEY	GEORGE JAMES	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21098'
COX	WALTER CHARLES CLAVEY	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21566'
WHEELER	EDWARD BERTIE	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21579'
COMPTON	WILLIAM EDWARD	15-09-16	Lance Corporal	15th Bn.	'21608'
WATTS	CHARLES	07-10-16	Lance Corporal	15th Bn.	'21627'
HISCOCK	GEORGE CYRIL	06-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21646'
ADAMS	SAMUEL JOHN	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21664'
BARTON	GEORGE	07-10-16	Corporal	15th Bn.	'21667'
KNIGHT	GEORGE	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21688'
HADLEY	GEORGE WILLIAM	15-09-16	Lance Corporal	15th Bn.	'21712'
LODGE	JAMES	15-09-16	Lance Serjeant	15th Bn.	'21755'
BAILEY	EDWIN	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21773'
MATTICK	HERBERT LEONARD	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21779'
BAKER	WALTER HENRY	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21785'
SILVER	WILLIAM DANIEL	07-10-16	Lance Corporal	15th Bn.	'21787'
WILSON	ROBERT	15-09-16	Lance Corporal	15th Bn.	'21948'
CHAPMAN	WILLIAM NICHOLAS	05-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'21998'
FARWELL	FREDERICK JAMES	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'22380'
BUSHROD	LIONEL WILLIAM	06-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'22548'
TILBURY	JESSE	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'22561'
BUCKLER	CASS	06-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'22783'
FYLES	HENRY CHARLES THOMAS	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'22794'
COOMBS	WILLIAM	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'22863'
STUBBS	JAMES FRANK	04-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'24731'
HOOD	NORMAN	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'29659'
HILLIER	WILFRED HERBERT	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'29663'
HOBBS	HERBERT ALFRED	15-09-16	Private	15th Bn.	'29664'
DANKS	ALBERT EDWARD	07-10-16	Private	15th Bn.	'31730'
CALDER	WILLIAM MENZIES GRANT	15-09-16	Second Lieutenant	13th Bn. attd., 15th Bn.
CARRINGTON	HAROLD EDWARD	15-09-16	Captain	"C" Coy. 15th Bn.
JAMES	JAMES WRIGHT	07-10-16	Captain	15th Bn.
STAPLETON	HUBERT	15-09-16	Captain	15th Bn.
STOPFORD	FREDERICK DUNCAN	15-09-16	Second Lieutenant	15th Bn.

Edited 12 June , 2017 by laughton
added Pozieres information

[Alan24]

2 hours ago, laughton said:

The only thing that was not done, which we normally include in our reports, is a list of others that could be considered and then a statement as to why none of those men appear to be candidates.  For example, in this case, is there anyone else that has a similar number that might have caused some confusion or concern?

 

Good point Richard, one to think about that next time.

 

You would have to start with ALL Hampshire Regt. men with no known grave whose units served on the Somme at any point during the war, perhaps not just 15th Battalion?

You could discount the officers as the remains show evidence of a G.S. Uniform.

You could discount all deaths before a certain date based on the issue date of the service number or similar service numbers, although 18030 must dated from around early to mid-1915.

You could discount TF men as their numbers would either be 4 figure or 6 figure. I believe the 5 figure number in this case relates to Regular and Service battalions. 

 

Geoff's Search Engine http://www.hut-six.co.uk comes up with 605 Hampshire men on the Thiepval Memorial, including officers. 

37 on the Pozieres Memorial - mainly 11th Btn.

There are 99 15th Hampshire men listed as killed on 15th September 1916. Some will have graves. 

 

Quite a lot of searching to do!

 

However, saying that, with the same service number on 3 pieces of equipment, it should be clear what we are looking for. 

 

Regards

 

Alan.

 

 

Edited 12 June , 2017 by Alan24

[laughton]

Your man as the reference:

 

PETTY

WILLIAM JAMES

W J

15-09-16

Private

15th Bn.

'18030'

 

So that new list for Thiepval would include:

 

COOPER

HARRY

H

13-10-16

Private

2nd Bn.

'18038'

TIZARD

GEORGE THOMAS

G T

03-09-16

Lance Corporal

14th Bn.

'15030'

 

As close as Tizard is to the number, agreeing a 5 and an 8 could be in error, I am not sure why you would search them if it says he was 15th Battalion? But, the CWGC appreciates it when you eliminate any possible connection - so can we eliminate the 14th Battalion in September 1916 - where were they?

 

To do these searches, I download the CWGC list as a CSV file, change it to EXCEL and then delete the columns that are not needed. You can then use the "Find & Select" button (far right binoculars) to search for any terms, wild cards included.

 

I would say Tizard is the closest match so far.

 

For the 37 on Pozieres, only Kerby has a faint match to the number, only because all the numbers are there in a different order:

 

KERBY

ARTHUR

A

21-03-18

Private

11th Bn.

'10308'

 

It appears to me that the CWGC believes that there was a report or an analysis completed when that COG-BR was completed in December 1931. I believe that all that it shows were that the effects were sent to the base. What they did with them, if anything, is anyone's guess. It would be good to find out that information for the benefit of all cases.

 

AN OPTION:

 

We create our own panel of reviewers from the membership of the GWF and the CEFSG, plus any associated organizations that would have expertise in the investigation of the unknowns (i.e. Diggers in Australia, South African War Graves Project, New Zealand, etc.). If you want to have your case reviewed PRIOR to submission, that can be done, or if your case is rejected, you can ask for a review prior to an appeal to the CWGC. There is no reason to say that the review panel could not have members from the CWGC, MOD, VAC and other international groups of the commonwealth governments.

 

I have done reviews of cases that have resulted in a NEGATIVE on the report. We have to look at these objectively, as failure on cases that are presented or pushed without substantial fact are not good for any of our teams or individual members.

 

If you  notice on our Canadian reports (even the ones for the UK), the last page tells what guidelines we followed and who participated in the investigation, reporting and the review.

 

For those that have not seen our reports submitted to the CWGC, they are here:

 

Reports Submitted for CANADIANS ONLY: http://cefresearch.ca/unknown-reports/

 

Reports Submitted with other COMMONWEALTH MEMBERS: http://laughton.ca/publications/unknown-project/commonwealth-unknowns/

 

It was only in the last 4 months that the CWGC Canadian Agency (Veterans Affairs Canada) and the CWGC Commemoration Office took an active interest in our reports. Since that time we have experienced much better cooperation with Ottawa and Maidenhead, but only one (1) case has been reviewed and approved. One (1) Appeal Case was rejected, but we did get them to agree to change the headstone that was incorrect. We expect to see considerable progress on the other cases in the next 24 months.  We have PRIORITIZED 2 cases for August this year, as they related to two Canadian Officers at Hill 70. They were the most difficult of the cases presented, took months to complete, but we believe they are "air tight". It was one of those cases that revealed the error in the mapping related to the 2nd Lieutenant Kipling Case. Those two reports are here:

 

http://cefresearch.ca/reports/Lieutenant McDonald St Marys A D S Cemetery Plot 14 Row C Grave 11.pdf

 

http://cefresearch.ca/reports/Lieutenant Wylie Loos British Cemetery Plot 6 Row H Grave 2.pdf

 

These two cases were completed with extensive input from Brigadier General (ret'd) Greg Young who heads the 15th Battalion Memorial Project. We hope to have the Governor General of Canada at the re-commemoration services in Loos/Lens in August or September this year.

 

Note:

 

If the case was an appeal, it has the original case number filed by a "-1", such as the case here:

 

Corporal BFG Jeffs RFC Douchy-Les-Asyette British Cemetery Plot 3 Row D Grave 7.pdf (11 July 2016 – CWGC Case No. 86-1)

 

 

 

Edited 12 June , 2017 by laughton
Added code for appeal cases.

[Alan24]

OK Richard some good ideas there.

 

Looking at 'Tracing British Battalions on the Somme' by Ray Westlake we get...

 

Tizard 15030 14th Btn. (3/9/1916)

3/9/16 attacked north-east of Hamel. Withdrew to Mailly-Maillet Wood.

 

Cooper 18038 2nd Btn. (13/10/16)

11/10/16 south of Gueudecort (Bulls Road).

12/10/16 in support during attack on Hilt Trench. Moved forward to captured positions during night of 12/13th. Withdrew to reserve position 15/10/16.

 

Alan.

[Alan24]

If Tizard & Cooper fell as noted above you would expect them to have been at these map refs;

 

Tizard - approx 57D.Q.18.c

Cooper - 57C.N20.d.2.6. (Hilt Trench)

 

Therefore they can be discounted as some distance (2.5 miles) from 57c. S12.a.7.7.

 

Having trouble locating 11th Hants Diary for 21 March 1918 on Ancestry to see where Arthur Kerby may have fallen.

 

Regards

 

Alan.