Location of 1st & 4th Bn Coldstream Guards 18th June 1917

[Lost in Tilloy]

Hello.

 

I've been researching a Coldstream Guard casualty for a friend. The man in question is Private 16861 Robert Martin Hunt, 1st Coldstream Guards, KIA 18th June 1917. Buried in Artillery Wood Cemetery, West-Vlaanderen, Belgium.

 

Sadly Roberts service records have not survived [though I am aware that my friend can write to the Coldstream Guards Regimental Archivist at Wellington Barracks to make a search request in case they have a copy]. My problem is trying to locate where he was when he died and whether or not he was attached to the 4th Coldstream Guards at the time. I believe that this latter battalion served as Divisional Troops as opposed to the 1st Coldtream Guards who served in the 2nd Guards Brigade.

 

The reason I wonder if this is a possibility is that I have read the war diary of the 1st Coldstream Guards for the date in question [18th June 1917] and it would appear the battalion was in billets at the Montmorency Barracks near Bethune. Just prior to this the battalion had been in action at Cuinchy and the diary does mention 1 officer and 6 other ranks being wounded by a single rifle grenade on 16th June 1917, however if Robert had been wounded on 16th June and then died on 18th June I would have thought that he would have been listed as having died of wounds as opposed to killed in action.

 

I then looked for other Coldstream Guards that were killed in action on 18th June 1917 and there were a few from the 1st and a number from the 4th battalions that were also buried in Artillery Wood Cemetery. None of their service records appear to have survived either therefore I've been unable to check to see if any of those listed as 1st CG had been attached to the 4th CG.

 

I also cannot locate a war diary for the 4th CG to confirm where they were on 18th-19th June 1917. Does anyone have access to the war diary of this unit who could help confirm their location please?

Thanks

LIT 

 

 

[GraemeClarke]

Morning

 

Unusually the 4th WD names other rank casualties daily and your man is not amongst them.

 

They were at  A.14 a, the WD (in part) stating

14th June - marched off at 8am and proceeded just south of Proven and past Ste. Sixte Convent to the wood at A.14.a where they went into bivouac.

 

PS. I have the 1CG WD and they were in trenches at Boesinghe (spelt as diary) on the 18th June 1917 and were shelled in the morning and relieved at 11.30pm to Cardoen Farm.

 

This ties in with him being buried in Artillery Wood.

 

Not sure what diary you have read.

 

Regards,

 

Graeme

[HarryBrook]

The Concentration Documents - Burial Returns sheet relating to his entry in the register for Artillery Wood Cemetery gives the map ref. where is body was found as B 12 a 0.1. This is in the Boesinghe area.

[tullybrone]

Hi,

 

I'm sure that forum member Colstreamer (Ian)will be along shortly regarding your query.

 

Just wanted to pickup  on your "service records missing" quote in case you are under the assumption that the fact a Guards Regiment service record is not on Ancestry/FMP is evidence it was destroyed in 1940. Some records are on Ancestry/ FMP but only a very small proportion usually either from the Pensions files or where the soldier transferred out.

 

Guards Regiment service records were filed in a different place to the warehouse that was bombed in 1940 and are now held at the respective RHQ's and are available.

 

Regards

 

Steve Y

 

 

[Lost in Tilloy]

Many thanks for all your replies. I will follow up on the information all of you have given. Graeme, I used Ancestry's search engine to bring up the war diary for the 1st CG on 18th June 1917. Clearly from what you have said I've been looking at the wrong one. Thanks for the correct info. I'll have another go and see if I can bring up the right entry this time! 

Kind regards

LIT

[neverforget]

3 hours ago, HarryBrook said:

The Concentration Documents - Burial Returns sheet relating to his entry in the register for Artillery Wood Cemetery gives the map ref. where is body was found as B 12 a 0.1. This is in the Boesinghe area.

Please forgive the intrusion, but my 2nd Coldstream Gt Grandfather is buried at White House cemetery, and for years I have been trying to locate the place he was killed. I'm going over there with my son in two weeks time, on our little pilgrimage, and your post has made me wonder if White House cemetery might be able to provide similar information to help us in our search, and if so, how may I access such information?

Many thanks.

[GraemeClarke]

Hi

 

Unfortunately, or fortunately, whichever way you look at it, George was buried directly in the cemetery and was

not 'concentrated' from a battlefield burial as the man above was. It was this form which gave the burial co-ordinates. 

 

The WD is not much use either, just stating that they relived units in the trenches in the evening of the 28th.

On the 30th there was a heavy bombardment with the battalion being relieved having suffered  2 officers wounded, 3 OR killed and 24 wounded. 

 

No mention of area etc.

 

Regards,

 

Graeme

 

 

[neverforget]

Thanks for clarifying that for me, Graeme. I got myself all excited for a moment there thinking I might have stumbled across something after all this time.

I've been through the 2nd btn diary firstly, (one of the leanest I've read with regard to detail) and also the diaries of the neighbouring btns, and the best I can find out is that he was in the Wieltje salient. 

At least we have a grave to visit in his case. The other relative that we are going to pay our respects to was never recovered. In his case though, I have been able to pinpoint where he still lies.

Thanks once again Graeme for your post.

[Lost in Tilloy]

Solved the mystery of what WD entry I was looking at on Ancestry. Although the Ancestry search result says Coldstream Guards, 1st Battalion, 24th June 1917, Moved to barracks at Burbure, when I scrolled back to the beginning of the month this diary entry is actually for June 1915 not June 1917 as listed.

 

I guess the lesson for me is to look further back at these Anestry listed war diary entries to ensure the dates specified are correct.   

LIT

[Coldstreamer]

well another fail for the search engine not finding stuff

 

in summary, what do people still need ?

[Lost in Tilloy]

I'm okay for info now Coldstreamer. Graeme answered my question. Thanks for the offer of help though. I just need to be more careful about Ancestry searches!

kind regards

LIT

[Coldstreamer]

Ill check my 4th btn roll when I get chance

[Coldstreamer]

hello

 

HUNT is not listed on the roll I have for the 4th Btn

[Lost in Tilloy]

Hello

 

Many thanks for checking Coldstreamer. Much appreciated.

Lit

[ianshuter]

I don't know if this is of use but I used it elsewhere see link below.

4th Battalion Coldstream Guards - Diary for 18/19 June 1917

Boesinghe Chateau - 18/6/17: The following work was done:

(1) No 2 Company found 40 men for work a XIV Corps workshops at A.16.a.1.1
(2) No 1 Company found 60 men for work under 75th Company RE at J Camp A.8.b
(3) No 3 Comany commenced digging the new communication trench commencing just east of Chasseur Farm and running south of Boesinghe Chateau grounds. They were heavily shelled - 230 yards dug to a depth of about 2 feet. Work done by night.
(4) No 4 Company commenced digging the new communication trench through the Boesinghe Chateau grounds. The grounds were heavily shelled and very little work was done, Work done by night.

Killed (early morning 19/6/1917)
      No 13533 Pte G Burton (No 3 Coy)
      No 16805 Pte H E Howlett (No 3 Coy)
      No 13929 Pte E.J. Neale (No 3 Coy)
      No 13366 L/Cpl J. Newsham (No 3 Coy)
      No 13596 Pte C. G Hinchcliffe (No 3 Coy)
Wounded (early morning 19/6/1917)
      Capt A.H. Dickinson (No 3 Coy) - slightly wounded still on duty
      No 14038 W. Thompson (No 3 Coy) - died of wounds
      No 16154 L/Cpl E.H. Rigden (No 3 Coy)
      No 13879 Pte W Adamson (No 3 Coy)
      No 17005 Pte B Lee (No 3 Coy)
      No 14622 Pte J Mortimore (No 3 Coy)
      No 4406 Pte E.E. Russell (No 3 Coy)
      No 14525 Pte W.H. Shawe (No 3 Coy)
      No 16142 Pte J.H. Willmott (No 3 Coy)  END.

https://www.swfhs.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2763:pte-cj-neale&catid=16:the-men-who-fell-in-ww1

[Jonny]

Hello,

I've just found these questions and answers and found it very interesting because I've looking for information on Robert Hunt myself. Robert was my Grandpas brother. Roberts death made a big impact on the family and I remember discussions about Robert when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s. My Grandpa was very proud of his brother serving in the Coldstream Guards. He himself served in Queen Victoria Rifles and was wounded in 1918. I've got a letter Robert sent to my Grandpa from France and a book produced by his father with poems dedicated to his son.

I know this was started some time ago but I've read the discussion several times and am struggling to see if there was a conclusion to the original question of where he died. I will be really grateful Lost in Tolley for any further information. I'm also interested what your connection is with Robert?

 

Jonny

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Jonny said:

I will be really grateful Lost in Tolley for any further information. I'm also interested what your connection is with Robert?

Welcome to the GWF

 

@Lost in Tilloyis an active member of the forum and my tag should alert them to your post.

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