White feather campaigns

[Guest webbhead]

This is clearly a heated topic. Thanks, everyone, for the responses. I'm sure I'm not the only one to think there's a book to be written on this topic.

I think the white feather issue highlights just how complex the homefront situtation was during the war. In everyone's responses/ anecdotes so far we've seen:

- Wounded men in civilian clothes given a white feather by an insensitive woman

- Sensitive women who felt themselves left behind the "boys" and resorted to this dubious method of "contributing" to the war effort

- Men who were genuine shirkers

- Men who were pacifists (latter two categories often hard to tell apart!)

- Men who had already done military service and rightly deserved to be respected, not berated

- Wealthy middle-class women who handed out white feathers while letting less privileged women do the "dirty work" in munitions factories

- Women adopting disturbingly masculinized/ racialized notions of cultural prowess and purity

I haven't yet seen any authentic justification for the white feather campaign, which leads me to suspect there isn't any. Still, as many have said, it is exceedingly hard to transmit the social/ moral context of that time into our own. Perhaps we can never understand, only observe.

[NIGEL]

Richard

No one ought to go and fight any war unless they believed in the reasons they were doing it.

WW1 + WW2 Were different in respect that if you didnt engage the enemy your country was next, then in this point i do believe its all hands on deck.

If you are talking about other things where a country is at war for someones vanity ?? then i do believe if they want us to go and fight, they of course have to be at the very front before we even put our boots on.

[NIGEL]

Sue

On the person i referred to whose dad got him a job down the pit so he didnt have to go, i can tell you he took great delight in telling us how glad some of the service mens wives were for a bit of company, and how they were also glad for a bag of spuds, half a dozen eggs, and a few rashers of bacon, as on the side he was also doing a bit of black marketeering. Even though this was 40 years after the war, it still stuck in our throats as he walked away after telling us this story endless times, i dont know what else i can say about it, its just rotton as far as i am concerned. But he is still kicking and knocking 80, so he proves the old saying " ONLY THE GOOD DIE YOUNG " .

[BeppoSapone]

This is clearly a heated topic. Thanks, everyone, for the responses. I'm sure I'm not the only one to think there's a book to be written on this topic.

I think the white feather issue highlights just how complex the homefront situtation was during the war. In everyone's responses/ anecdotes so far we've seen:

- Men who were genuine shirkers

- Men who were pacifists (latter two categories often hard to tell apart!)

Actually I would have said that, in WW1, it was easy to tell the shirkers from the pacifists.

Pacifists insisted on their right to Conscientious Objection. Most - known as "Alternativists" - ended up doing work of national importance, a lot of this was hard physical work, with poor pay and conditions, work on the roads springs to mind.

A minority of C.O.s - known as "Absolutists" - went to prison rather than do anything to help the war effort. Some did more than three years in prison, and a fair number died.

Many of the "Shirkers" made a lot of money out of the war. Some of them became "Starred Men" and worked making munitions and in engineering etc for very good wages. The Labour Representative on at least one tribunal was able to "use his influence" to get these men very well paid and safe work. A lot of this type of man simply moved on to keep ahead of conscription. A few went to Ireland and even Australia to avoid being conscripted.

The typical Conscientious Objector would be arrested, fined 40 shillings and be sent to the army. From the army the determined CO would be sent to prison or a work camp.

"Shirkers" in at least one south coast town could even pay a "backhander" of £5 to a clerk at the Town Hall in order to have their papers mis-placed, and thus avoid not only the army, but a lot of hassle as well.

[Guest webbhead]

Beppo:

Thanks for your insights into the subtleties of the shirker tag. As you can tell from my phrase "everyone's responses" I was summarizing what I'd read above, not so much imposing my own opinions on shirkers vs pacifists.

Here in Canada the whole debate took on an added dimension, because there were those who saw Canada's participation in the war as a "duty" toward the Empire, and those--some, but not all, French Canadians, German-Canadians, nationalist Canadians, Irish Canadians, you name it--who wanted no part of what some perceived as a "Britain's" war, much as that perception was a simplistic one.

To be a "shirker" or "pacifist" culturally as well as politically-charged.

As for the white feathers, I think it is ultimately obnoxious for ANYONE--male or female--to say to anyone else: Here, go off and fight, get wounded/ killed, etc--IT'S YOUR DUTY.

Cheers

[NIGEL]

As for the white feathers, I think it is ultimately obnoxious for ANYONE--male or female--to say to anyone else: Here, go off and fight, get wounded/ killed, etc--IT'S YOUR DUTY.

Then if your country is being attacked, and that is your response, does that mean that you are worse than the FIT man who refused to go over the top and fight alonside his mates. ?? Does that mean you are no better than the collaboraters because in a way you are assisting them ??

I am only talking about the main wars here where we are all affected.

Nobody in their right mind wants to get maimed wounded or killed, but in those circumstances, is not everybody else completeley justified in taking what ever action they see fit against you ??

If you want to be part of society with everyone else, then you abide by the same rules of life, and unfortunatley, these occurences happen where we have to do these things, otherwise you are a parasite living off others, the alternative is go and buy yourself an island an live there on your own or with others, but dont expect anyone to come and bail you out if an agresser wants a bit of what you have and decides to take it, and that could be your wife and family not just the few bob in the bank.

[NIGEL]

SUE

Your innocence is lovely and sweet, the man i am talking about whose dad got him down the pit-----------had an office job-----------that to he always put with his story

[Max]

Then if your country is being attacked,

Nigel

The one flaw in your argument is that in the Great War our country was not being attacked, and the likelihood was that it wouldn't be, blood being thicker than water if you know what I mean.

IMHO the only reason Britain went to war was to restrict or terminate Germanys expansionist tendencies as we had the view that there was only enough room at the table for one (maybe two) European colonial powers.

Being, in turn, an occasional shirker (aren't we all?), a confirmed coward (it isn't rational to invite someone to shoot at you) and a pacifist by inclination there is no way I would have volunteered to take up arms, even if prompted to do so by a frustrated middle class woman presenting me with any part of an inferior chicken. These decisions are of course made now in my nice comfortable home and without the frenzy of nationalism and peer coersion. Only at the sight of an invasion force being put together on the other side of the Channel would make me consider my view.

Volunteer, I don't think so. Certainly not to protect Belgium or France and most certainly not to enhance the position of King or Empire.

Andy

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

SUE

Your innocence is lovely and sweet,

You don't know her like some of us

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Then if your country is being attacked,

Nigel

The one flaw in your argument is that in the Great War our country was not being attacked, and the likelihood was that it wouldn't be, blood being thicker than water if you know what I mean.

IMHO the only reason Britain went to war was to restrict or terminate Germanys expansionist tendencies as we had the view that there was only enough room at the table for one (maybe two) European colonial powers.

Being, in turn, an occasional shirker (aren't we all?), a confirmed coward (it isn't rational to invite someone to shoot at you) and a pacifist by inclination there is no way I would have volunteered to take up arms, even if prompted to do so by a frustrated middle class woman presenting me with any part of an inferior chicken. These decisions are of course made now in my nice comfortable home and without the frenzy of nationalism and peer coersion. Only at the sight of an invasion force being put together on the other side of the Channel would make me consider my view.

Volunteer, I don't think so. Certainly not to protect Belgium or France and most certainly not to enhance the position of King or Empire.

Andy

......and with the hindisght of a 21st century male.

[NIGEL]

Hi Andy

I know why we went to war, and i suppose the hidden agenda was money for a few who didnt need anymore, but as we know, as the months went on, it was obvious that if the Germans had pushed through, would they have stopped when literally the whole world was there for the taking, so what started was not what was ending up.

I would be the last to go and fight for anybody but ME ! and ME and MINE ONLY ! but if it looked that that was in peril because of somebody else cock up, what choice have you got ? I would certainly never go and fight for the French or any other Europian even if we ended up as a superstate, but then again, same rules apply.

But dont forget as far as the general public knew at the time, it was just big nasty Germans, they didnt know the ins and outs as we do now

[Max]

......and with the hindisght of a 21st century male.

Absolutely

[NIGEL]

OH DEAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[healdav]

As I said some time ago my father was given a white feather once despite being in a job from which he was forbidden to resign and was effectively under military discipline.

He was even forbidden to join the Home Guard as 'his duties would preclude him being involved in any invasion duties'.

Shirker?

[Myrtle]

OH DEAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nigel

Is that an apology ?

I agree with Sue. When you said "down the pit" I immediately understood you as saying that the man worked underground. Those men who worked in the colliery office, worked "on the surface" or "above ground".

Myrtle

[NIGEL]

Sue + Myrtle---------no it was not an appology, i have nothing to appologise for, i didnt go and insult, or pat on the head, or patronise anybody,. I just told part of a story to get a point across, i didnt and still havent told all of the story, one for fear of boring everybody to death, and secondly, you would be complaining about the rudeness shall we say of the exploits this man bragged about.

If people take me the wrong way then thats their problem, i do take issue with the fact that Sue thinks i give women different treatment, i always treat everybody the same.

[Myrtle]

Your innocence is lovely and sweet,

i always treat everybody the same.

Nigel

So that means you would say the same to Ian Bowbrick.

[NIGEL]

Certainly with my back to the wall, but why does anyone try and find offence at a off the cuff harmless remark which had no intentions what so ever is beyond me. Insulting someone is easy, trying not it is the one, i spend so much time trying to tip toe around people on here, this is just another one where it turns upside down, theres alot of itchy trigger fingers

[PFF]

It appears that even a wounded Veteran (in Civilian cloths) would get "White Feather"!!!!!. I wonder if the brave "Stay at homes" who gave the veterans these

"Gifts" would notice that discharged veterans (Due to wounds) wore a speical

Wound badge!!!!!

[Guest]

De-lurking for a moment. I find the subject of white feathers very sad. My great grandfather was given a white feather and it destroyed his family. He had seven children. His wife died after giving birth to the last. With no other family he looked after them all until he was given the white feather in 1916. Of course he immediately enlisted, and the children were separated into various orphanages and foster homes. He was killed exactly one year after enlistment. The children were separated for good.

My Nana told a very sad story of a much awaited visit to her younger sister. Her family was poor, and she walked to the gate of the home where her sister lived. As she stood there in her hand me down dress and no shoes, her sister arrived riding a white pony, beautiful riding clothes - and shiny boots. It was a disparity in positions she never forgot. Nana's memories of her father were very loving, and it hurt her to think someone thought him a coward for trying to keep his family together.

The dreadful thing about white feathers is that you can give a "shirker" or "coward" enough white feathers to make a duster, but it isn't going to change their mind. But give a white feather to a man who has reasons for not going places him in an untenable situation, often resulting in very sad outcomes.

[Guest British Sapper]

Actually I would have said that, in WW1, it was easy to tell the shirkers from the pacifists.

Pacifists insisted on their right to Conscientious Objection. Most - known as "Alternativists" - ended up doing work of national importance, a lot of this was hard physical work, with poor pay and conditions, work on the roads springs to mind.

A minority of C.O.s - known as "Absolutists" - went to prison rather than do anything to help the war effort. Some did more than three years in prison, and a fair number died.

Many of the "Shirkers" made a lot of money out of the war. Some of them became "Starred Men" and worked making munitions and in engineering etc for very good wages. The Labour Representative on at least one tribunal was able to "use his influence" to get these men very well paid and safe work. A lot of this type of man simply moved on to keep ahead of conscription. A few went to Ireland and even Australia to avoid being conscripted.

The typical Conscientious Objector would be arrested, fined 40 shillings and be sent to the army. From the army the determined CO would be sent to prison or a work camp.

"Shirkers" in at least one south coast town could even pay a "backhander" of £5 to a clerk at the Town Hall in order to have their papers mis-placed, and thus avoid not only the army, but a lot of hassle as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Men like Herbert Morrison MP who spent WW2 as the Home Secretary, and helped to imprison other 'conchies' as well as others. Morrison spent WW1 picking apples in a fruit orchard.

I agree that some who were mill-owners, for example Charlie Harvey, of Fothergill &Harvey, spent WW2 in the nightclubs of Manchester, while the working men were putting their lives at risk on the front lines. I would assume that WW1 was even more class based.