Gommecourt Lions Posted 12 June , 2016 Share Posted 12 June , 2016 My name is Ian Shaw I am 58 years old and live in Lincoln with my wife Tina, we are both Look North viewers. We both originate from Derby and our families still live there. I thought that fellow Forum Members might be interested in a forthcoming Commemoration Service that is being held in Chesterfield. As part of the Somme 100 Commemorations on the 11th July 2016 at 2 pm which will be exactly 100 years to the day when Charlie was buried at the Christ Church, Stonegravels Church and Church Yard in Chesterfield. We will be holding a service to remember my Great Uncle: Private 1853 Charles Gordon Shaw and the many other brave men and officers of the 1/6th (Chesterfield) Battalion of the Notts & Derby, Sherwood Foresters Regiment who were killed and wounded in that terrible battle. The service is being arranged by the Church Warden Mr John Holmes and will be attended by the Mayor of Chesterfield Councillor Steve Brunt, The Royal British Legion Standard Bearers and Bugler, Shaw family members and family members of Sgt Dick Wagg who was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal for rescuing Lt. Wheatcroft the Platoon Officer, Charlie and another Private whilst under heavy enemy fire on that dreadful morning. The Service will be officiated by the Honorary Padre of the Sherwood Foresters Regiment. After the service I will give a brief talk in the church explaining about Charlie’s and the 1/6th Battalion’s part in the Battle of Gommecourt Wood on the first day of the Battle of the Somme. Sadly, Lt Gen Thomas D'Oyly Snow the commander of the British 7th Army who was the Great Grandfather of one of the prominent TV history commentators Dan Snow who regularly appears on the BBC's One Show, wrote a letter to senior Army Generals the day after the Battle of Gommecourt on 2nd July 1916 in which he unjustly and totally incorrectly condemned the men of the 46th North Midlands Division as having "a lack of offensive spirit". A scandalous and hurtful slur that deeply offended the townsfolk of the North Midlands who lost many brave sons and fathers in that horrific attack (of which Lt Gen Snow was one of the leading organisers). An error that Mr Snow was to discover when examining his Great Grandfathers papers and he quietly admitted in a small part of a Daily Mail on Line article on 25th April 2011. The attacking Midlands Battalion's casualty rate percentages were among the highest on the day and their men went forward bravely under a withering barrage of shells and machine gun fire. Unfortunately, I don't think that there was wide coverage of that article in Chesterfield at the time and Dan has never mentioned the fact so far in any Great War TV documentary. I'm sure that Dan will be making another 100th anniversary documentary about the Somme for transmission in July as he did for the anniversary of the Battle of Jutland last month. Dan was also one of the main advisors in the creation of the Royal British Legion's Somme 100 App that gives users all the details of the Somme Offensive, strangely up until a few days ago the Gommecourt Assault was not even mentioned as one of the 1st July attacks until his error was pointed out by a member of the Great War Forum, to the RBL who have now corrected the omission. It would be wonderful for the descendants of the North Midlands Division's fallen to at last hear from Dan's mouth (or social media) a retraction on behalf of his Great Grandfather (who in later years obviously realised his error) and to remove the 100 year old slur on men who fought like lions on the day and from the Division's memory, this would be a timely and appropriate thing to do for Dan whom I admire and respect as an excellent and interesting historian. Best Regards Ian Shaw ian.shaw1@btinternet.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 12 June , 2016 Share Posted 12 June , 2016 Hi Ian, I am a Chesterfield lad and have a great interest in local casualties. As I am sure you will know, it is impossible to combine those two things without some exposure to the 6th Btn. There are many experts on here with a lot more knowledge of them than I possess who will, I am sure, be very interested in this. I am almost ashamed to say that Chesterfield seems to be very poor at commemorating the centenary, and has indeed always been poor at commemorating its fallen of the Great War. So far as I am aware, the lads from the town are not named on any memorial, and there is no roll of honour. I had hoped that the centenary would have provided an opportunity to put that right, but I have heard nothing. Unfortunately, due to work, I will not be able to attend on the 11th, but I hope the day goes well and that you will consider posting updates on here afterwards for those of us who will miss it. With regard to Snow, have you invited him? It seems that this would be an ideal opportunity for him to set the record straight, though it is perhaps a little late in the day now for such an obviously busy chap to fit it into his schedule. Warmest regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 12 June , 2016 Share Posted 12 June , 2016 Mentioning Snow and history in the same sentence is just - wrong. Many on the forum may not agree with your sentiments on him. I will try and make it (various ailments) permitting. Mike Briggs is you man for all things 6th battalion. Mike - they do have a bench for Fred Greaves VC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 12 June , 2016 Share Posted 12 June , 2016 Mentioning Snow and history in the same sentence is just - wrong. Many on the forum may not agree with your sentiments on him. I will try and make it (various ailments) permitting. Mike Briggs is you man for all things 6th battalion. Mike - they do have a bench for Fred Greaves VC! Yes, interesting that, as Eckington and Brim are somewhat "outside the pail". I'm not sure if Fred ever paid his Rates to Chesterfield Borough Council, more likely Derbyshire County Council in his day. Good to know that some people in Chesterfield do remember something, maybe there is hope for them yet? Cheers, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gommecourt Lions Posted 12 June , 2016 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2016 Mike & Steve I was being diplomatic in case he reads this Forum! Yes I sent him a message on twitter re the date, place and time which he "liked" whatever that means. Mr Snow is tricky to get hold of. there is a Great War Roll of Honour in wood on the wall inside the Christ Church at Stonegravels and Chas is on it. Mike Briggs has already been invited, I would love for him to be able to make it but I think he may not be able to get there, however Alan MacDonald (Author of A Lack of Offensive Spirit?) and his wife may well be there as they are in the area at that time. I will post pictures of the event asap afterwards. Cheers Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodMedic Posted 15 June , 2016 Share Posted 15 June , 2016 My twin Brother will be the official Standard Bearer for the Derbyshire Constabulary at this event, he is trying to find out if there where any Derbyshire Police officer who was killed on the first day of the somme battle, so far records show none where killed however a number died prior and after the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagius Posted 19 June , 2016 Share Posted 19 June , 2016 Hi Ian We've communicated on my Gommecourt Remembered thread! All the best for your commemoration on 11th July. I had a brief email exchange with Alan MacDonald (Bill MacCormick) in May in which he said he had worked with Dan Snow on a programme about Gommecourt in 2008. So a quick search came up with this revealing article... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/oct/19/somme-haig-snow-british-army I can't recall seeing the programme at the time and I don't think it's available on DVD. Also led me to some comments on GWF back in 2008 ... (Click and scroll down a bit!) I don't know if Dan Snow has ever apologized for the 'Lack of Offensive Spirit' comment on behalf of his ancestor and the Snow family but , if not, he would do well to say it in this centenary year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gommecourt Lions Posted 20 June , 2016 Author Share Posted 20 June , 2016 Pagius, Yes it is very convenient to "close the door" on his Great Grandfathers past and his despicable actions post Gommecourt, not wishing to tarnish further the "Generals" reputations. But the normal working class families of the soldiers the North Midlands 46th Division have had to live with that slur for a 100 years but what's the feelings of thousands of working Class bereaved people worth against the reputation of one self serving aristocrat? I don't think that Dan would have to moral courage to comment and correct history just as his ancestor Lt. Gen D'Oyly Snow didn't. At the end of the day he's not worth worrying about, the 11th July will be Chas's and the 1/6th Battalion Notts & Derby Regiment's day not some revisionist historian's. Went to Christ Church on Saturday to discuss final plans and found out something wonderful. We were worried when doing the research that his Mum and Dad and wider family had not known about his death and that they had not managed to get to the funeral from Oldham. In the records it listed all the funeral attendees and their floral tribute and amazingly they were all there along with friends, wider family, neighbours and church colleagues. It is such a relief to know that he got the appropriate send off at the time. Cheers Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagius Posted 20 June , 2016 Share Posted 20 June , 2016 All the best. This site needs a Facebook 'like' function! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knotty Posted 20 June , 2016 Share Posted 20 June , 2016 51 minutes ago, Gommecourt Lions said: I don't think that Dan would have to moral courage to comment and correct history just as his ancestor Lt. Gen D'Oyly Snow didn't. His father certainly be wouldn't be saying anything according to the Guardian Jon Snow said he had not dwelt on his grandfather's decisions at the Somme: 'The First World War I have written off as a dark chapter for all concerned. Hope the event goes well John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRONNO Posted 20 June , 2016 Share Posted 20 June , 2016 On 12/06/2016 at 11:55, stevem49 said: Mentioning Snow and history in the same sentence is just - wrong. Many on the forum may not agree with your sentiments on him. I will try and make it (various ailments) permitting. Mike Briggs is you man for all things 6th battalion. Mike - they do have a bench for Fred Greaves VC! I had the great honour of remounting Fred Greaves VC Group with the rest of the VC's to the Regiment recently, these being made ready for the opening of the new Sherwood Foresters Gallery at Nottingham Castle on Saturday 2nd July 2016. The Lord Mayor of Nottingham and Brigadier Peter Dennis with other dignitaries will officially open the gallery. Good luck with your commemoration in Chesterfield on the 11th July 2016. BRONNO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spook71 Posted 2 July , 2016 Share Posted 2 July , 2016 On 15/06/2016 at 19:09, BloodMedic said: My twin Brother will be the official Standard Bearer for the Derbyshire Constabulary at this event, he is trying to find out if there where any Derbyshire Police officer who was killed on the first day of the somme battle, so far records show none where killed however a number died prior and after the battle. There is large amount of information on derbyshire police involvement here Take a look at @DerbysPolice's Tweet: https://twitter.com/DerbysPolice/status/748842338252754944?s=09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gommecourt Lions Posted 15 November , 2016 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2016 Just a quick update on the story of my Great Uncle Charles Gordon Shaw. Fantastically the CWGC have now ageed and authorised a new Military Headstone for Charlie. The new stone will be placed on the actual plot where he is buried and will be corrected to read that he was 21 years old when he died and not 22. They have allowed us a 4 line inscription on the stone which will read. "Sleep in honoured rest Truth and valour wearing Bravest are the tenderest The loving are the daring" It will take about 6 months from now and they will then remove the old stone from the empty grave that read "Buried elsewhere in this church yard" We visited Charlies grave on Remembrance Sunday to re-new the wreaths and flowers. A great success story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRONNO Posted 15 November , 2016 Share Posted 15 November , 2016 Well done. BRONNO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Collington Posted 20 November , 2016 Share Posted 20 November , 2016 My Father Alfred Collington fought in this day (93rd) RGA Battery at Gommecourt (location of siege battery probably FunkyVillers) and this is not how I am sure he would like to be remembered, His brother John James Collington (Sherwood Foresters) had been killed at Richebourg the previous year, and with what he had available, shelled Gommecourt in an endeavour to assist the campaign of Somme assault July 1st 1916, He was later with the battery (34th) I believe from records moved to Berles Au Bois (34th Division) before moving to Leivin (1917) where he was severely injured, but recovered (with loss of right leg) thank God, and that's why I and my brother are here today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gommecourt Lions Posted 25 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2017 Hi again all, A further update on Great Great Uncle charlies Headstone. Well the CWGC have come up trumps and placed a new, correctly worded Headstone on the correct grave in the Church Yard at Christ Church stone Gravels, Chesterfield. But it all very nearly ended in disaster again as the CWGC guys put the new headstone in the wrong place again last month. Very fortunately an alert young lady who works in the Church Centre noticed their van and managed to catch them as they were putting their tools away. She advised them of their error, the new stone was dug up again and replaced on the correct grave plot. You couldn't write this stuff! Not bad putting a headstone on the wrong grave plot twice in 100 years. But all the same deep thanks to the CWGC staff for producing such a wonderful headstone and helping us to mark Charlies grave correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 25 October , 2017 Share Posted 25 October , 2017 Many thanks for the update Ian, and the pictures. Warmest regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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