mancpal Posted 5 June , 2016 Share Posted 5 June , 2016 I've recently been looking through a number of service records and have come across cases of both absence and desertion. Could anybody tell me at what point absence became desertion? Were both offences tried by the same type of court hearing? Many thanks Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRC Kevin Posted 5 June , 2016 Share Posted 5 June , 2016 The difference is that with desertion, there is no intention to return to the fold. If a man disappeared from duty then he was posted a deserter immediately, whereas if he had failed to report back after a period of authorised leave, it was usually about three days before he was posted as a deserter. A man reporting back 2-3 days' late from leave was normally tried by the CO. A longer period, whether the charge was desertion or absence was invariably a court martial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 5 June , 2016 Share Posted 5 June , 2016 Hello Simon They were both offences triable by court-martial, the essential difference being that desertion implied an intention not to return to service. A man charged with desertion could be convicted of the lesser offence of AWOL, which did not carry a potential death sentence. A man absent for 21 days or more was reported to the authorities and a description of him posted in the Police Gazette. If caught, the decision whether to charge him with desertion or AWOL would rest with his CO and the officer convening the court-martial, and would depend on the facts of the case, especially regarding any evidence of his intention to return. Ron Edit: Kevin beat me to it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loader Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 Know of a case where the man was a well liked soldier who was most conscientous of his duties. One time he decided to overstay his leave by afew days. The neighbors began to look at him with jaundiced eye & he knew someone whould turn him in so he went back. He was about 4 days late levaing & by time he got back to France it was a couple more.BNut when he got back his officer told him he was glad to see him as they had moved position & men on leave cvoming back were having trouble findng the unit! He was such a good soldier the idea of him overstaying seemed never to have occured to anyone. He survived the war & laughed about that incident the rest of his life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 In the RN if a man fails to report for duty, he is posted as AWOL. If he still has not reported after 5 days he is posted a deserted, Run in naval parlance. For being absent he is obviously guilty of an offence and will be punished, but for deserting the penalties are draconian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastSurrey Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 Desertion within the U.K. seems to have often been treated relatively leniently. I came across the Burnt records of a man who enlisted in 12/E. Surrey in August 1915 and was clearly a very unsatisfactory soldier. He had gone AOL or been apprehended as a deserter in the U.K. on several occasions. Finally, he was apprehended, whilst on the run, by the civil police for stealing a violin. After he had served his time in Wandsworth, he was handed over to the Army. He was tried and sentenced to six months. However, he was soon sent to the Front instead, where he was killed six months later. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 In practice, no-one who deserted in the UK without having served abroad faced the death penalty. Conspiracy theorists might suggest that some were sent to France and tried and executed there, but this normally applied to men who had actually served in France but deserted and were apprehended in the UK. According to the official records in Statistics, only 62 officers and men were tried by GCM or FGCM in the UK for desertion. There were over 31,000 trials by DCM in the UK for desertion but the maximum sentencing power of a DCM was two years' imprisonment. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 6 June , 2016 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2016 Thanks everyone, You've certainly answered my question. From the records I've been looking at absence appears to be more common than I'd expected. The longest sentence I've come across was one of 12 months to be served immediately upon completing a civilian sentence of 3 months for theft. Another 19 year old achieved 10 courts of enquiry (various offences) in approximately 12 months before being transfered back to the Colliery he'd worked at previously to carry out essential war work. I think the phrase " unlikely to become an efficient soldier" may have been written for him! Regards Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 In practice, no-one who deserted in the UK without having served abroad faced the death penalty Ron, Privates John Jennings and Griffith Lewis deserted in London from 2/South Lancs in October 1915. Arrested in May 1916 they were shipped to their battalion in a back area of the Somme, tried, and executed on 26 June 1916. They had no previous form as far as I can. The timing of their executions cannot be coincidental. Also Driver James Swaine overstayed his 1915 Christmas leave. Arrested in Wealdstone in May 1916, and executed June 9 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 Please explain the comment regarding the timing of execution ............... I fail to follow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 Hi, From what I've seen on the internet Jennings & Griffiths "absconded" at The Union Jack Club, near Waterloo Station, from a draft en route to France from their Regimental Depot. I don't know anymore about their circumstances but I have a peacetime example regarding my paternal gf. He went AWOL from Winchester in Nov 1919 whilst under orders to sail to India. He returned voluntarily after a few days absence but " having missed the boat" was tried for "Deserting his Majesties Service whilst under orders to sail to India". He received 56 days detention and was sent to India on his release. I presume that going AWOL in UK whilst either en route or merely under orders for an overseas posting in war or peacetime is always considered desertion? Steve Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 Hi, From what I've seen on the internet Jennings & Griffiths "absconded" at The Union Jack Club, near Waterloo Station, from a draft en route to France from their Regimental Depot. I don't know anymore about their circumstances but I have a peacetime example regarding my paternal gf. He went AWOL from Winchester in Nov 1919 whilst under orders to sail to India. He returned voluntarily after a few days absence but " having missed the boat" was tried for "Deserting his Majesties Service whilst under orders to sail to India". He received 56 days detention and was sent to India on his release. I presume that going AWOL in UK whilst either en route or merely under orders for an overseas posting in war or peacetime is always considered desertion? Steve Y According to the 1914 KR's once he was under orders for embarkation then he could be tried with detention not exceeding 112 days (rather 28 days for the 'basic level). It also later adds that a man who deserted to avoid overseas service should be considered for a draft (whereas other men under sentence generally weren't to be). Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 Hi, From what I've seen on the internet Jennings & Griffiths "absconded" at The Union Jack Club, near Waterloo Station, from a draft en route to France from their Regimental Depot. I don't know anymore about their circumstances but I have a peacetime example regarding my paternal gf. He went AWOL from Winchester in Nov 1919 whilst under orders to sail to India. He returned voluntarily after a few days absence but " having missed the boat" was tried for "Deserting his Majesties Service whilst under orders to sail to India". He received 56 days detention and was sent to India on his release. I presume that going AWOL in UK whilst either en route or merely under orders for an overseas posting in war or peacetime is always considered desertion? Steve Y Manual of Military law adds: Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 Thanks Craig. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 Please explain the comment regarding the timing of execution ............... I fail to follow! It's less than a week before the start of the Somme, Grumpy. But you know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 Hedley Your examples are interesting. Do you know whether Driver Swaine had previously served with his unit in France? If so, he would come under the exception mentioned in my post, i.e. getting back to the UK and being caught there did not preclude him from being sent back to his unit in France and tried there. As regards Jennings and Griffiths it is not clear whether they had served with 2/S Lancs in France and were, perhaps, part of a draft including returning wounded. If not, they provide a good illustration of the "grey area" in these matters. But they could still have been sentenced to death by a court-martial in the UK. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 Hedley Your examples are interesting. Do you know whether Driver Swaine had previously served with his unit in France? If so, he would come under the exception mentioned in my post, i.e. getting back to the UK and being caught there did not preclude him from being sent back to his unit in France and tried there. As regards Jennings and Griffiths it is not clear whether they had served with 2/S Lancs in France and were, perhaps, part of a draft including returning wounded. If not, they provide a good illustration of the "grey area" in these matters. But they could still have been sentenced to death by a court-martial in the UK. Ron Griffith's record is available on FMP - http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007397605%2f00210&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7397605%2f8%2f210&highlights=%22%22. He was wounded in Oct 14 and sent back to the UK for treatment. It looks like he went back to the 2nd Bn in France in Oct 15. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 Craig, Jennings record reflects he started his return journey to BEF but he went absent en route. Steve Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 Craig, Jennings record reflects he started his return journey to BEF but he went absent en route. Steve Y Ta, I was going to look but hadn't (yet). Out of curiosity, had he actually left the UK when he deserted ?. Presumably he was part of the same draft as Griffiths ?. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 No problem Craig. Yes both went AWOL together per internet article I quoted re Jennings. Going off on a slight tangent - Do you know if any of the SAD cases relatives received any gratuity payment? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 6 June , 2016 Share Posted 6 June , 2016 No problem Craig. Yes both went AWOL together per internet article I quoted re Jennings. Going off on a slight tangent - Do you know if any of the SAD cases relatives received any gratuity payment? Steve Another 'home run' . They forfeited the war gratuity (under section 11 of AO17 of 1919). I'm not sure about the service gratuity but I'd suspect it was not paid. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 6 June , 2016 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2016 And the original topic was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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