Some German s98s and s98/05s

[jscott]

Sydney is currently being lashed by a multi-day storm of Biblical proportions, so I thought I would spend some time looking through my bayonets - and I started with my German s98s and s98/05s. One thing that I noticed as I went through them is the fact that from a fairly small sample size (my main focus is Australian/ British territorial marked bayonets) there are a quite a few matching regimental markings. This seems more than a coincidence, given that the German army comprised many hundreds of regiments and my collection of German bayonets (unfortunately) numbers much less than this.

Anyway here are some photos of the matching bayonets that I've found:

1. Firstly, the whole batch of my s98s and s98/05s (with one imposter). Probably 65-70% are unit marked (to give an idea of sample size).

2. Here are two s98 a.A. bayonets (both Erfurt, dated 01 and 02), both marked to the 52 IR (one to an ersatz battalion). This is complete coincidence - they are the only two s98 a.A.'s that I own.

[jscott]

3. And here are 3 bayonets (2x s98 n.A.'s and 1x s98/05n.A.) all marked to the 5th Bavarian IR / RIR.

I am being towed away from the computer by my three year old to help him with a puzzle but would be very interested to hear if anyone has any hypothesis for these matching marks. I'll post my thoughts later today.

[trajan]

Sydney is currently being lashed by a multi-day storm of Biblical proportions, so I thought I would spend some time looking through my bayonets - and I started with my German s98s and s98/05s. One thing that I noticed as I went through them is the fact that from a fairly small sample size (my main focus is Australian/ British territorial marked bayonets) there are a quite a few matching regimental markings. This seems more than a coincidence, given that the German army comprised many hundreds of regiments and my collection of German bayonets (unfortunately) numbers much less than this.

Sorry about the storm! We are having slighly unseasonable 30+'s the last few days with no thunderstorms - temps tend to be lower and storms more often in May-June

Well, you know that unit-marked German bayonets are not that common, and unit-marked 98/05's especially so. To get 'matches' like the ones you have does not seem to me to be a coincidence. If it was not your way of collecting, as you imply, I would cautiously suggest 'bring-backs' by Ozzie men in units in combat with those particular German units - if you got them down there! So, maybe check out the German unit histories?

Julian

[trajan]

I am being towed away from the computer by my three year old to help him with a puzzle but would be very interested to hear if anyone has any hypothesis for these matching marks. I'll post my thoughts later today.

Yes, I know the feeling - I have to go and help a 9 and a 7 year old with homework soon but I want to post my latest finds... So, a possible explanation offered above - and, may I say, as a very envious person, that is a nice little lot you have there... But, at the same time, envy does not stop me thinking "Well done, nice collection!"

Julian

[Michael Haselgrove]

Hi jscott,

An excellent looking collection. Thanks for posting.

I agree with Julian that unit marked S98s and particularly S98/05s are not that common at least in my experience. I have had the briefest look in Carter and in Vol. II p.119 he lists two S98 nA examples marked respectively B.5.R.11.69 and 246 and manufactured by V C Schilling (O/06) and C G Haenel (O/13) respectively. I know it is your S98/05 examples that are marked to that unit but it does perhaps establish it was the custom to mark bayonets in that regiment.

In Williams Part I at p.443 he shows an S98/05 n/A by Amberg/F Herder (L15) marked B.5.R.1. and at page 445 an S98/05 aA (L14) marked B.5.R. and at p.447 an S98/aA (W15) by Deutsche-Maschinenfabrik again marked B.5.R. There are two other photos at pages 446 and 447 respectively of similarly marked bayonets but they may be repeats of the examples already mentioned.

I haven't had time to look further but hope the above is of interest.

Michael.

[trajan]

... I have had the briefest look in Carter and in Vol. II p.119 he lists two S98 nA examples marked respectively B.5.R.11.69 and 246 and manufactured by V C Schilling (O/06) and C G Haenel (O/13) respectively. I know it is your S98/05 examples that are marked to that unit but it does perhaps establish it was the custom to mark bayonets in that regiment.

In Williams Part I at p.443 he shows an S98/05 n/A by Amberg/F Herder (L15) marked B.5.R.1. and at page 445 an S98/05 aA (L14) marked B.5.R. and at p.447 an S98/aA (W15) by Deutsche-Maschinenfabrik again marked B.5.R. There are two other photos at pages 446 and 447 respectively of similarly marked bayonets but they may be repeats of the examples already mentioned. ...

Michael - small correction: the S98/aA (W15) by Deutsche-Maschinenfabrik is a S.98/05 a.A., as below

I followed up on Michael's idea and checked my far-from-complete listings of German unit marks - I am still doing web-sites and have yet to do Carter, etc., and the main list has not been added from my working lits since last summer (12 06 2015 to be precise!) - nor do I have the ruler/dates for some. Anyway, lo and behold, I found on my lists 19 for the B.5, almost twice as many as for any other Bavarian unit. The ones I have are:

B.5.R. S.98/05 aA W/15

B.5.R. S.98/05 aA L/15

B.5.R. S.98/05 aA W/15 - same as Williams

B.5.R. S.98/05 aA L/14 - same as Williams

B.5.R. S.14

B.5.R EB 49

B.5.R.1. EB 04

B.5.R.1. S.98/05 nA mS L/15

B.5.R.1. S.98/05 nA

B.5.R.1 S.98/05 nA L/15 - same as Williams

B.5.R.1.169. S.98 nA O/06

B.5.R.1.224. S.71/84 mS L/91

B.5.R.3.151. EB 04

B.5.R.3.167. S.98 nA O/06

B.5.R.5.69. EB 04

B.5.R.7.9. EB 62

B.5.R.9.57. S.71

B.5.R.9.234. S.98 nA O/06

B.5.R.10.192. S.71/84 aA L/88

To which list add as above from Carter via Michael:

B.5.R.11.69. S,98 nA O/06

B.5.R.11.246. S.98 nA O/13

Even if we take out the S.71's, that is still a fair few unit-marked ones, and a reasonable number are on bayonet-types that were still around in August 1914, with a few on EB also.

Julian

[trajan]

Sydney is currently being lashed by a multi-day storm of Biblical proportions, so I thought I would spend some time looking through my bayonets ...

I have just been reading about the storm - very nasty... Take care! And if your are marooned at home, any chance of putting up details of your B.5 ones (ruler/date and unit markings) to flesh out the above? Thanks!

[jscott]

Michael, Trajan

Thanks both for your comments. Yes I agree that the unit marked s98/05s are quite scarce – from memory I only have 3 – the B5R one shown, plus separate bayonets marked to the 22IR and to a Bavarian Jaeger unit (B2J). I see a lot higher percentage of the s98s with unit marks – all but one or two of the ones I own are marked (presumably because they are an earlier model and this marking was done before the practice stopped). Plus I like collecting bayonets with unit markings as it facilitates a bit of extra research!

My experience (for what it is worth) is that the Bavarians were much more prone to unit marking their bayonets – and of the regiments I've seen the most common are B5, B7, B10, B11 and B1 (probably in that order or thereabouts). The units from the other states (including Prussia) seem much more varied – with the obvious exception of the two matching s98 a.A's that I posted above!

Thats a great list of B5 markings Trajan - I note Roy Williams has at least 5-6 in his book alone, so it was clearly a unit with a penchant for markings. To be honest I do have a soft spot for this unit as it was one of the regiments manning the trenches at Messines prior to the offensive there in 1917, and they also fought at the Kemmelberg / Mont Kemmel (both battles that I am very interested in).

Yes, the storms here were pretty severe - a leaky roof (2-3 days of intense horizontal rain at 60k/hr tends to do that), but family all safe and sound so all good! Happy to put up my Bavarian markings soon - are the other Bavarian regiments of interest as well?

Cheers, Jonathan