LIMBURG POW CAMP

[JulianB]

Tim,

My grandfather was at Limburg in April 1918, but then moved on. So I too, wanted to know about the place. This is what I got from Mrs Pope-Hennesy's (1918) book (p,8)

Limburg is situated on the east bank of the Rhine just over the Dutch border. It was described as on the [River] Lahn, a camp near the town but now ‘the centre of a number of invalid camps and hospitals in occupied territory; also the head camp for a certain number of men working in occupied territory. Capacity, 12,000. Limestone Barracks’

however, I'm very interested in your

Evidence as to Officers or Men on Missing Lists document dated 18/1/1918

there are quite a few people I'd like to look up. Where can I find it (or is it just for Australians !?

Julian

[Tim]

Tim,

My grandfather was at Limburg in April 1918, but then moved on. So I too, wanted to know about the place. This is what I got from Mrs Pope-Hennesy's (1918) book (p,8)

Limburg is situated on the east bank of the Rhine just over the Dutch border. It was described as on the [River] Lahn, a camp near the town but now ‘the centre of a number of invalid camps and hospitals in occupied territory; also the head camp for a certain number of men working in occupied territory. Capacity, 12,000. Limestone Barracks’

however, I'm very interested in your

Evidence as to Officers or Men on Missing Lists document dated 18/1/1918

there are quite a few people I'd like to look up. Where can I find it (or is it just for Australians !?

Julian

G'Day Julian,

There is good chance that your grandfather and Cyril were in Limburg at the same time. Thanks for the description on Limburg. Cyril notes in is POW post cards to his wife, that he was "employed" in picking fruit and "grease and oil change" work in Limburg.

The Evidence as to Officers or Men on Missing Listshas the title above it For British War Office. so I assume it would've been used for the BEF and all Commonwealth Forces. What is interesting is that appears that the Germans had copies of these documents as the sections on the document that requires signatures, also has German typed on it.

This document is a part of Cyril's Defence Service Record, of which I have a copy of. Unlike the UK, pretty much all of Australian First World War documentation has survived and is stored at the national Archives of Australia located in Canberra.

If any of the people you would like to look up Australian, you can easily look up Red Cross wounded and missing records online at www.awm.gov.au

Cheers,

Tim

[Guest metroman]

Hi Tim,

My grandfather was Ernest Simonsen, 2715, and he was a runner in the 47th Battalion. He was shot and wounded in the great battle of Dernancourt, somewhere around 8 April 1918, and taken to Limburg POW camp.

He spent about 6 months there I think, and was treated very well as I understand from my older sister's discussions with him. Apparently he and another Ozzy both had leg wounds and used to hobble around leaning against each other. The Germans referred to them as the "emu and the kangaroo".

I don't know any more about Limburg camp than you probably, but I do have a full panaramic photograph of the entire camp, which he brought home with him. Its about 400mm across. I also have a piece of camp money.

I have many photos of him and his buddies, so if anyone is interested in the 47th, let me know. The guys I have photos of are:

Close 2634

Cunningham 2633

Hayes 2666

King 2671

Letchfield 2678

Preston 2750

Price 2700

Smith 2713

Tierney 2731

Turner 2728

See ya

[Tim]

Metro, my good man.

I'm very interested in the full panoramic shot of the camp. Any chance I can get a digital copy of it? It must be impressive considering the camp is supposed to have a capacity of 12000.

Cheers,

Tim

[Guest metroman]

Hi Tim,

I think I am going to have to eat humble pie here. I have just pulled the photo out, and found that the camp photo is actually called "Quedlinburg", and so is the money. I have checked on the map, and Quedlinburg is about 170miles north-east of Limburg.

So now I am confused, because my grandfather sent his confirmation of capture from Limburg, which makes me wonder why would he had a huge photo of Quedlinburg? The photo is in about 4 pieces, and is actually 750mm wide x 100mm high.

Now I am wondering whether he was transferred at some stage from Limburg to Quedlinburg. The only other explanation is that the Limburg camp was called Quedlinburg....but thats a bit unlikely I think.

Sorry for getting your hopes up,

MM

[Tim]

MM,

No worries mate.

Cyril was transferred a number of times.

He was in Dulmen, Hammelburg and Limberg.

I've had a look at Ernest's Red Cross POW cards and it shows him being reported MIA on 5/4/1918. Next card shows him as POW, wounded and ill on 8/4/1918. Card after that shows him as POW in German hands, wounded and no further report dated 28/5/1918. He could've well been at Limburg during any of these dates.

The final card shows him being interned at Quedlinburg, dated 20/6/1918.

He was repatriated to Australia 30/12/1918.

Cheers,

Tim

[Doug Johnson]

Hi Pals,

Limburg was one of the first places of registration for a PoW whether they were actually there or not. Some were at several places whilst still registered at Limburg. A registration camp acted as a postal address for red cross parcels and as an administration centre for prisoner movements. Quedlinburg was another centre for registration. Generally the red cross were only interested in the registered address which is why few of the work camps get a mention. Red cross parcels were sent to the registered address and redistributed by the post offfice at the camp. Keeping track of where prisoners were was a mammoth task as they could change work places every few weeks.

Doug

[Guest Luri]

Hi Pals,

Limburg was one of the first places of registration for a PoW whether they were actually there or not. Some were at several places whilst still registered at Limburg. A registration camp acted as a postal address for red cross parcels and as an administration centre for prisoner movements. Quedlinburg was another centre for registration. Generally the red cross were only interested in the registered address which is why few of the work camps get a mention. Red cross parcels were sent to the registered address and redistributed by the post offfice at the camp. Keeping track of where prisoners were was a mammoth task as they could change work places every few weeks.

Doug

Dear Dough, Tim and all others who are looking for material regarding the Limburg POW.

My name is Ludwig and I am the webmaster of www.limburg-dietkirchen.de a site which contains pictures and a story of the Dietkirchen (Limburg) POW as well as it's history. Unfortunatelly the site is actually in german only but a future plan is to have it translated in english.

Dietkirchen is the place where the camp itself was located. Dietkirchen is a small village very close to Limburg and today an official part of the city of Limburg while it had it's own local goverment in the time of the Great war.

You can also see at the site that there is an Irish memorial cross which the people of Dietkirchen are actually trying to preserve. The first guess from specialists in preserving are costs of approx. 35,000 Euro. We have performed a Irish folk festival 2 years ago what has resulted in approx. 10,000 Euro but still this is not enough to pay the preservation.

Of course I am personally interested in each kind of material about the POW and the people who lived there for a time or maybe have died there. Also stories about the camp are appreciated. My interest is in trying to collect all material and publish it on my site.

So if anybody of you guys has any kind of requested material I really do appreciate if you can provide me with a copy of it.

Would be nice if especially metroman could provide me with a digital copy of his panaramic photograph of the entire camp. Maybe I can then confirm to him if it is really the Limburg POW or another one.

Thanks so far in advance for your help and co-operation.

brgds

Ludwig

[Guest Luri]

Tom

I have been researching the Casement papers and those associated with the formation of the so-called German Irish Bigade for several months now, and there is no real description of the Limberg-Lahn Camp in any of these files. However, I'll

extract what there is and e-mail the information to you.

Terry Reeves

Hi Terry,

My name is Ludwig and I am the webmaster of www.limburg-dietkirchen.de a site which contains pictures and a story of the Dietkirchen (Limburg) POW as well as it's history. Unfortunatelly the site is actually in german only but a future plan is to have it translated in english.

I am looking for each kind of material to add to the specific part of my page which is related to the camp and the appropriate cemetery. I really appreciate if you you provide me with a copy of this material as well.

thanks in advance for your help and co-operation.

brgds

Ludwig

[Guest metroman]

Thanks, Tim, Ludwig and Doug,

I will scan the photo sometime this week and post it for all to see. I know its definitely Quedlinburg, as it has been printed along the top as a part of the photo.

Ludwig, maybe you will know whether German archives have preserved records of POWs, and which camps they went to and what they did? I guess it was a long time ago, but worth asking.

Thanks,

MM

[Guest metroman]

Hi guys,

I have just tried loading the Qudlinburg Camp photo, but the first scan segment hadn't finished loading after 11 minutes, and it was the smallest scan of all. I could be here for hours.

It would be easier if I emailed I think. So if anybody would like a copy, please let me know your addresses.

Alternatively, does anybody know a faster way of loading scans?

MM

[Guest mcfadyme]

Hello world, found this site trying to find info re my grandfathers. My paternal grandfather Private FGPike of 14th Battalion AIF was captured on 9th August 1917 in Messines and taken to Limburg Camp. I have copies of three postcards he sent stating he was treated well and would the family please send a small parcel and soap to him. Also have a copy of the sign in paper at camp with the German dialect first over the English. He returned to australia on HMAS Derbyshire in Feb "19 TPI.

[Paul Hederer]

Tim,

My grandfather was at Limburg in April 1918, but then moved on. So I too, wanted to know about the place. This is what I got from Mrs Pope-Hennesy's (1918) book (p,8)

Limburg is situated on the east bank of the Rhine just over the Dutch border. It was described as on the [River] Lahn, a camp near the town but now ‘the centre of a number of invalid camps and hospitals in occupied territory; also the head camp for a certain number of men working in occupied territory. Capacity, 12,000. Limestone Barracks’

however, I'm very interested in your

Evidence as to Officers or Men on Missing Lists document dated 18/1/1918

there are quite a few people I'd like to look up. Where can I find it (or is it just for Australians !?

Julian

Just for posterity sake, for anyone referencing this thread later, Limburg an der Lahn is not just over the Dutch border, it's located in beautiful Hessen as someone posted earlier.

Cheers,

Paul

[Doug Johnson]

Pte Frederick George Pike was well travelled as a PoW according to his Red Cross files. Dulmen, Amberg and Bayreuth as well as Limburg!

Doug

[Liz in Eastbourne]

5281 Spr Cyril BERRY, 2nd Aus Tun Coy was captured at Nieuport 11/7/1917. I have his service record in hand and I'm trying to determine which POW camps he was interned in.

A German POW camp document shows on 15/9/1917 he was interned in Dulmen POW camp.

A Evidence as to Officers or Men on Missing Lists document dated 18/1/1918 shows him interned at Hammelburg POW camp, although the solider making the sworn statement that he saw Spr BERRY captured (5437 Spr J. WIEDMER, 2nd Aus Tun Coy) is interned at Sagan POW camp and stated that Spr BERRY was captured at Dendemonde, Belgium on 22/7/1917. Not too sure how that one works.

Now here's where I get stuck. In an Extract from postcard from prsioner of war sent by Postal Censor dated 14/8/1917, Spr BERRY writes he's interned at Limburg POW camp.

Where is Limburg? I can find no mention of a POW camp at Limburg.

Can anyone provide any assistance?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Tim

Tim,
I've read this thread with great interest - thanks, all. I am more than four years late here but I hope you and others on this thread may still be able to help. I am looking at the service record of Rifleman John Thomas Hardcastle, 2nd Bn KRRC (originally 21st Bn) who was also captured at Nieuport, the day before Cyril Berry. (I am also interested in the Battle of the Dunes of 10 July 1917 in which they both participated, I assume - given that Australian tunnellers are mentioned by the KRRC accounts - but that's another story on another thread).

According to his record Hardcastle was POW at Limburg too, but died on 6 August 'of a sickness' (? and wounds?) at Notre Dame (hospital?) Deinze, Belgium - that's near G[h]ent so at first sight it seems he was taken all the way to Germany, Limburg an der Lahne between Koblenz and Frankfurt, and then brought back to Deinze which is much nearer Nieuport..

But can this be right? It seems a lot of movement given that he died less than a month after being taken prisoner, but perhaps from what others have said he was in Limburg just for registration, or from what Doug has said, was never there at all - just registered. In which case, I wonder where he was actually held, as he was in hospital and died in Deinze. Googling doesn't show up a POW camp at Deinze but I am completely ignorant on this subject. If you or anyone else have any comment on this I'd be very grateful.

Liz

[Doug Johnson]

Liz,

From the information you have it is almost certain that he was held behind the lines and Limburg was his registration camp. Conditions here were awful and many died of disease, shellfire, starvation etc. This is a link to a list of camps behind the lines that I compiled some time ago. It is almost certainly well incomplete. Most of these camps were no more than barbed wire enclosures and few are recorded.

Doug

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Doug,

I am very grateful for your speedy and helpful reply. This does seem the most likely explanation. A local Yorkshire newspaper report when the news of Hardcastle's death was finally received in October 1917, two months after it happened, said his mother was mystified because she had had a postcard from him apparently written in early August which said he was all right. I don't know if anyone in his family still has it, or whether it would be informative, even if they have.

Thanks .

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Doug and all

I have been a bit slow about this, given that I have been quite obsessed by the Battle of the Dunes over the past few months.

I think the answer to my question - and perhaps Tim's - is after all on the Battle of the Dunes July 10 thread.

When I was following it before I was very focused on the officer i/c 2nd Bn KRRC who was killed - and so I forgot that Stebie9173 had posted an account by a man in the 1st Battalion Northants Regiment who was taken prisoner after the same battle and says there were about 700 prisoners, including wounded, who were kept overnight at Middlekerk and next day made to march 12km to Ostend. They spent 12-16 July in Bruges on the top floor of a German barracks and then the town hall. On 12th the whole party, except about 25 who were kept back for information and then sent on 16th, were taken by train to Dendermonde, between Ghent and Brussels.

This all fits with Hardcastle being taken to a hospital at Deinze when sick.

The statement about Cyril Berry at Dendermond is also more or less explained, though to say he was taken prisoner there is not quite accurate.

Now this bit fits both Hardcastle and perhaps Cyril Berry too:

'The first letter allowed was after we had arrived about a week, and we were not allowed to put any address on it. It consisted simply of a card saying 'I am quite well - a prisoner of war in Germany - and will give address later.' It was a month later before the next card was allowed, and on it were the same words, except the address was written Limburg-am-Lahn.'

That's it, isn't it - the confirmation that Limburg was just the place of record for these men, and that the words about being quite well meant nothing, at least in some cases like Hardcastle's. The 1st Northants man says they were taken on about 5 September to Dulmen - that fits with Berry, but Hardcastle was dead by then, and also by the time the second communication was allowed.

Both Berry's postcard from Limburg, and the reassuring one Mrs Hardcastle received earlier, are also explained.

Steve only posted this very illuminating material in May, long after your original discussion, but don't you think it provides the probable answer?

Doug, I'd be very grateful (again) if you'd do a link to Steve's post on that thread if I don't manage it shortly!

Liz

[Stebie9173]

Try this link, Liz:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=41843&view=findpost&p=1407173

There are other POW Reports further down the Topic as well.

Steve.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thank you, Steve!

They are incredibly interesting and valuable accounts. The first one, that I quoted earlier, is the one that fits these two men but I think I'll have to keep re-reading the Dunes thread to make sure I haven't missed anything. Especially if July 10th is going to keep recurring unexpectedly as has happened with Hardcastle - I thought in the beginning I was only really interested in Abadie.

The willingness of the experts on this forum to share information with other people is wonderful, and I very much appreciate it.

Liz

[MBrockway]

Liz,

Good to see you followed my suggestion from our off-the-board correspondence about posting here in the POW Forum - as expected the Pals came up trumps again!

After getting some more of my computing kit working again, I've done some further work on John Hardcastle's Service Record on which I did the commentary for you last week (again off the Board) which you quoted in your first post higher up.

I now see that it's not "Kriegslag. Notre Dame Deinz" (which I interpreted as "Kriegsgefangenenlager" = 'POW Camp'), but "Kriegslaz. etc." - i.e. Kriegslazarett = military hospital.

I interpreted that "Deinz" is a Germanicised version of Deinze - or more likely, a typo by the clerk at the War Office or Rifles Records!

Here's a zoom-in of the AF B103 ...

and the same inverted ...

Also I did not mean to mislead you about Limburg - I should have made it clear in my notes that I considered this as a 'POW Record Office' that handled John's records rather than an actual location he reached. In my interpretation of his Service Record, John never got out of Belgium.

As regards the cause of death being "Sickness" I'm keeping an open mind. As we discussed, SDGW has John's cause of death as "Died of Wounds". I think "sickness" as per his AF B103, could encompass dying from sickness arising from wound infection, septicaemia, tetanus etc. or dying from an infection unrelated to his wounds acquired during the evacuation - e.g. typhus or influenza.

Given the conditions prevailing in the German lines of communication at the height of Third Ypres, either explanation is possible.

What I think we can be reasonably confident about though, is that he would not have died from sickness, had he not been involved in the Battle of the Dunes in the previous month. Perhaps this is why SDGW records him as DoW.

Can any of the Pals cast any light on the reference to "List No PM 244" that must have listed him among the POW dead?

I'm afraid the List reference above it - which must be the source document for him being officially accepted as a POW - is illegible to me no matter how much I tweak it

Cheers,

Mark

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello Mark - I knew you were deep in computing problems so after all your tremendous help last week I thought I'd bother some other Forum pals!

Btw I hope you've noted that I did credit your huge help in my other post about the Yeoman Rifles and John Hardcastle on the units section (to which I would offer you a link if I knew how to do it with other forum threads. I keep asking pathetically for someone to show me) but I should have done so here as well. No problem about Limburg; I've understood the situation now by picking up Doug's comments on this thread and I'm interested to have found this Australian tunneller whom I had missed before. What I'm especially pleased about is the explanation of the postcard from Steve's Corporal Smith of the 1st Northampton Regiment from the Dunes thread that I'd omitted to go back and check.

Thank you for the clarification of the Deinze bit, that it was a hospital not a camp, and your thoughts on his ' sickness'. I was looking again at your transcription of his time between being wounded at Flers and joining the 2nd Battalion and wondering whether he was all that well to start off with. Corporal Smith said there were no epidemics in the Dendermonde place but conditions weren't good and they were weak from inadequate rations. Going back to the KRRC Chronicle 1917 account of the Battle of the Dunes you sent me as well as his account, there were likely to have been quite a few prisoners who were not seriously wounded, or not perceived as such. John might easily have been wounded again. As you say, whatever really happened to him, we can be pretty sure he wouldn't have died if he hadn't been at Nieuport.

I'm still trying to write a readable account of what happened to him, to sum up all we've found out.

Many thanks again,

Liz

.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Looking at this again I am amazed at what you've already got from this illegible info in English and German, Mark. It would be interesting to know what that List No PM 144 was. I am going to send you by e-mail the two sources of the family's website info, a Roll of Honour page and a contemporary newspaper report. They don't add to what you have found, in fact they say much less, but the Roll of Honour (seems to be national?) says ' died a prisoner of war at Deinze on 6 Aug.1917 of a sickness contracted while there.' But were they guessing about the sickness? The newspaper didn't in fact say his mother was 'mystified', as I stated earlier, that she had had a postcard in August saying he was fine, it just said that she had received it - that was me filling in between the lines! Must be more careful.

Military hospitals are a whole other subject I know little about. Am I imagining this in a reasonable way? -

John Hardcastle was a POW in a camp with only basic medical facilities and became seriously ill so he was taken to proper hospital, probably an ordinary Belgian hospital before the war, Notre Dame Hospital Deinze.

I guess I ought to raise further non-Limburg queries about Nieuport POWs elsewhere, although I hope this discussion might help other people who, like me, imagined 'reported as POW at Limburg' necessarily meant their man was actually there. I know now that Doug has explained this in other threads, but it's easy to miss things when you're inexperienced.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I forgot that Stebie9173 had posted an account by a man in the 1st Battalion Northants Regiment who was taken prisoner after the same battle

I have only just realised from another thread that saying Northants for the Northamptonshire Regiment is practically a hanging offence. Sorry, Steve - noble of you not to mention it. I'll never do it again!

Liz

[Stebie9173]

I believe it is only a hanging offense to the face of an old Steelback (I was never in the Army, for the record), but I do tend to avoid "Northants" unless I am directly quoting from a source.

In fact, the battalion histories nearly always use the "48th" (for the 1st battalion) and the "58th" for the 2nd thus avoiding the issue to a large extent! (They tend to refer to the KRRC as the "60th" or "60th Rifles".

Steve.