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ANZAC troops - John Robert Bremner born about 1897


margaretmarch
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Not sure if I've posted in the right place - if not perhaps a moderator could move the thread for me.

I am trying to help a friend find out about his father who said he was from New Zealand and had served with the ANZAC troops. I cannot find his name in the ANZAC records but understand they may not be complete.

The man I am looking for was in England in 1931 when he married stating his age as 34 years and occupation as wool grader and his father as William Robert Bremner occupation stock dealer.

We have no clues as to where in NZ the family lived and have not been able to find a birth in NZ for John Robert Bremner around 1897. We have also searched England, Wales and Scotland births without success.

What I am now trying to do is see how John Robert came to be settled in UK in 1931 if he came to Europe with ANZAC troops.

After the war I would have thought the men would go straight back to NZ, but if not, are there any records we could search for clues about this man?

Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.

Margaret

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Entering "John Bremner" in New Zealand soldiers WW1 on FMP

List the following (although none are listed as John Robert)

First name(s) Last name Occupation Country Record set

John Bremner Ploughman New Zealand New Zealand WW1 soldiers

John Bremner Baker New Zealand New Zealand WW1 soldiers

John Bremner Road-surfaceman New Zealand New Zealand WW1 soldiers

John Bremner Farm Labourer New Zealand New Zealand WW1 soldiers

John Cook Bremner Taxi-cab Proprietor New Zealand New Zealand WW1 soldiers

John Robertson Bremner — New Zealand New Zealand WW1 soldiers

J F Bremner — New Zealand New Zealand WW1 soldiers

I don't have a world wide subscription so cannot access the records or advise on what they contain

You may be able to access them on FMP in your local library

regards Ray

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John Roberton Bremner KIA 1916 but indexed as John Robertson Bremner at Archway, the NZ Archives.

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Entering "John Bremner" in New Zealand soldiers WW1 on FMP

List the following (although none are listed as John Robert)

First name(s) Last name Occupation Country Record set

John Bremner Ploughman New Zealand New Zealand WW1 soldiers

John Bremner Baker New Zealand New Zealand WW1 soldiers

John Bremner Road-surfaceman New Zealand New Zealand WW1 soldiers

John Bremner Farm Labourer New Zealand New Zealand WW1 soldiers

John Cook Bremner Taxi-cab Proprietor New Zealand New Zealand WW1 soldiers

John Robertson Bremner — New Zealand New Zealand WW1 soldiers

J F Bremner — New Zealand New Zealand WW1 soldiers

I don't have a world wide subscription so cannot access the records or advise on what they contain

You may be able to access them on FMP in your local library

regards Ray

Thanks Ray - Looking at those records there does not appear to be anything more than the transcript so I don't think a worldwide sub would make any difference.

I can see some of these names in the WW1 records on ancestry but nothing to confirm or discount any of them as being the one I am looking for.

Margaret

John Roberton Bremner KIA 1916 but indexed as John Robertson Bremner at Archway, the NZ Archives.

Thanks for this information. At least it rules this man out.

Margaret

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HI

Ancestry has a family tree for a John Robert Bremner, but different father, born 1901 married 1928.

There is a John Robert Bremner with a WW1 service record (British)-

Birth Date:

abt 1898

Enlistment Age:

19

Document Year:

1917

Residence Place:

29 Craiglea Drive, Edinburgh

Regimental Number:

21910

Other Regimental Numbers:

312586

Regiment Name:

Training Reserve Battalion

Also a few weddings in 1931.

Cant see anything else, and nothing for NZ.

Did he serve under an alias?

regards

Robert

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Thanks Robert.

I have discounted the one from Craiglea Drive as he is with parents Robert and Georgina in 1901 and his occupation doesn't fit.

I think an alias or some untruths are involved here but finding what is what is going to be difficult if not impossible unless we can get any other clues.

If I could find a birth record that would help.

Margaret

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Thanks Robert.

I have discounted the one from Craiglea Drive as he is with parents Robert and Georgina in 1901 and his occupation doesn't fit.

I think an alias or some untruths are involved here but finding what is what is going to be difficult if not impossible unless we can get any other clues.

If I could find a birth record that would help.

Margaret

If you do find any documentation, I'm afraid to say that the problem will be knowing which facts are true.

How will you know you've got the correct birth certificate if the father's name is not confirmed?

It seems that there is reasonable doubt here regarding:

Name

Year of birth

Father's name

Nationality

Army served in

And that will make it very difficult to cross reference him accurately.

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If you do find any documentation, I'm afraid to say that the problem will be knowing which facts are true.

How will you know you've got the correct birth certificate if the father's name is not confirmed?

It seems that there is reasonable doubt here regarding:

Name

Year of birth

Father's name

Nationality

Army served in

And that will make it very difficult to cross reference him accurately.

I agree. We have a possible death for him in the right area of London but again we need to get more information as the death certificate doesn't give enough information to rule the person in or out!

My main reason for posting on here was to find out if there was any where in military records I could look for him.

If for some reason he was brought to UK but really should have gone with the rest of his Unit back to NZ might there have been some sort of record made about that and any subsequent decision to allow him to stay or offer to get him home?

Margaret

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Hi Margaret

What are the wives names please.

Wendy

Hi Wendy

There is only 1 wife as far as I know for the John Robert I am looking for and it is Ida Mary Thornhill but I suppose it is possible he was married before but no indication of this in the family.

I was thinking maybe some slight variations to the truth might have been given if he was already married in NZ but conveniently forgot that when he married in the UK.

So far I have no indication of when he came to UK - the only possibility so far is taken from the anecdotal information that he was with ANZAC.

Margaret

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Although 11/213 John Robertson BREMNER NZEF died in 1916, I'm not so sure that you're on the wrong track with him or perhaps another member of his family. He stated his occupation to be a shepherd and his father William Gordon BREMNER (also served NZEF) was a Stock Agent.

Another brother James Halloran BREMNER also served in the NZEF but died of wounds. His occupation was also a shepherd.

There are other brothers from their family and perhaps they swapped names about to enlist because of being underage etc. The family needs more investigating to see what turns up but there's too many coincidences to discount them straight away.

Cheers,

Tim L.

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Hi Wendy

There is only 1 wife as far as I know for the John Robert I am looking for and it is Ida Mary Thornhill but I suppose it is possible he was married before but no indication of this in the family.

I was thinking maybe some slight variations to the truth might have been given if he was already married in NZ but conveniently forgot that when he married in the UK.

So far I have no indication of when he came to UK - the only possibility so far is taken from the anecdotal information that he was with ANZAC.

Margaret

Ok, what about the father William Robert BREMNER what was his wife's name.

Regards Wendy

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See #11

From CWGC:

BREMNER, JOHN ROBERTON

Rank: Lance Corporal

Service No: 11/213

Date of Death: 22/06/1916

Age: 23

Regiment/Service: New Zealand Machine Gun Corps No. 1 Coy.

Grave Reference: II. B. 23.

Cemetery: CITE BONJEAN MILITARY CEMETERY, ARMENTIERES

Additional Information: Son of William Gordon Bremner, and Mary Alice Bremner of Gisborne New Zealand. Previously wounded at Gallipoli.

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Ok, what about the father William Robert BREMNER what was his wife's name.

Regards Wendy

Don't know that because UK marriage certificates only ask for father's name for bride and groom.

We have no other documentary evidence about this man.

Margaret

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Although 11/213 John Robertson BREMNER NZEF died in 1916, I'm not so sure that you're on the wrong track with him or perhaps another member of his family. He stated his occupation to be a shepherd and his father William Gordon BREMNER (also served NZEF) was a Stock Agent.

Another brother James Halloran BREMNER also served in the NZEF but died of wounds. His occupation was also a shepherd.

There are other brothers from their family and perhaps they swapped names about to enlist because of being underage etc. The family needs more investigating to see what turns up but there's too many coincidences to discount them straight away.

Cheers,

Tim L.

Hi Tim,

Thanks. I will see what I can find on that family that might help.

It's not finding a birth anywhere that is a real problem - it's as if he didn't exist until 1931 when he got married which does smack of a false name.

Margaret

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Hi Margaret,

Writing this on a smartphone so can't see your details. Are you or your friend in NZ? How definite is the New Zealand link?

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Hi Margaret,

Writing this on a smartphone so can't see your details. Are you or your friend in NZ? How definite is the New Zealand link?

No, we are both in the UK and born there.

All my friend has confirmed about his father is that he married his mother in 1931 in London - we have the certificate.

My friend's parents split up some time after his birth in 1935 and father never returned home. His mother (now deceased) has given anecdotal information that we have been using as a start point. Personally, I have not been ruling anything out, hence the checks of birth records in the UK once we established that John Robert does not appear to have been born in NZ.

My friend believes his father was from NZ and ties in the occupation for John Robert at marriage of wool sorter as being from NZ and grandfather William Robert stock dealer also being a likely occupation for NZ.

Other than that it could all be a bit of a fabrication and we are looking for a needle in a haystack!

Margaret

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