Map of the Seno redoubt in Palestine Aug 1917

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Do you have a map of the Seno redoubt on the Gaza to Beersheba line in Aug 1917.

I am looking into the raid by the 2Bn ICC suported by the 52nd Div and Anzac Mounted Div.

I line with the above the Anzac MD was around what they call, north of Erk and South West of Magam Tomb, does you map show these areas?

Cheers

S.B

[michaeldr]

Steve,

The map below shows that part of the front line where the British 54^th Division were at that time

They had a raid on Umbrella Hill (seen left of the line) on 20^th July 1917

Alas I do not recognize any of the place names which you mention

Can you help by giving the date of the raid which you are interested in?

[michaeldr]

Steve,

It looks like your area is further east than I first thought

The crop below shows El Magam and Kh Erk with the British line as at the end of Oct 1917

Sorry I ave not yet found anything closer

Good Luck

Michael

[michaeldr]

Steve,

the only place that I can come up with in that area which has a vaguely similar name is the pool or well at Baiket es Sana

see crop below

[Guest]

Michael,

Yes I should have mentioned it is also shown as Sana Redoubt.

Nice to confirm where it is now or at lest the area it was.

Reports place only about 30 to 40 men in it , so how big was this defence system?

The raid by the 2Bn ICC (British) took place on the night 11/12 Aug 1917.

Our mate Stuart24 is sending me an account of the action, and it and with other documents should out line the best details we have on this raid.

I was looking at other sources, like what Turkish unit held the defences at that time, accounts by Anzac Mounted Div units, the NZMB suffered two wounded later DoWs.

And I am yet to see what out British mates in the 52nd Div did to help, (DMC orders and other accounts don't mention what British units supported this action?)

And the Artillery support as a number of batteries get a mention.

I am yet to see what this redoubt looked like?

Was it as large as the Tank redoubt or as complex as the Muntar or a long as the Atawine redoubts?

Maybe Eren may have something?

Cheers

​S.B

[Guest]

Mates,

Suart has now posted me his documents and they are just the ticket.

They include a number of raid maps of the area attacked.

Its a pity I can't post them here, may have to see my granddaughter about doing that.

Cheers

S.B

[Stuart24]

Hi All,

Steve may not be able to post the maps/info, but of course I can forward them to anyone who is interested. They're photos of documents at The National Archives, and while the quality isn't always great they are usable. I can transfer them via Dropbox if you want to message me with your email address.

Cheers

Stuart

[Eran Tearosh]

Returning to this old thread.

I am trying to publish every month an article on the website (Hebrew) of The Society for the Heritage of WWI in Isreal about This month over a hundred years ago. This month, I wrote about the Sana Redoubt raid, on August 11-12th 1917 night. In addition to what has been sent here before, I want to add a few points and ask a couple.

First - the whereabouts. On today's maps, this is the area:

Many of the sites that appear on the 1917 maps are not shown on today's maps, however, sites like Khirbet Erk are still out there, even if not marked on the maps. At nearby Hureira Redoubt, WWI Ottoman trenches are still seen. I was in contact with the archeologist who did the Israel Archeological Survey in this area and with his assistance, I managed to reconstruct the routes of the NZMR reconnaissances to Sana and of the raid itself. 

In the wonderful material Stuart sent there are reports of the Battalion C.O., C.O. of the advanced HQ and the C.O. of the raiding company (9th coy). Can't read his name and rank. He mentions 1 O/R killed and 2 O/R wounded. So far, I haven't found records of any ICC dead from those dates. Does anyone (Steve?) know about this?

I understand there's a book, written by an officer of the 2nd (British) Battalion, ICC - Geoffrey Inchbald, titled With the Imperial Camel Corps in the Great War. I guess it will include a part about this raid. Does anyone have this book and can share the part relating to the Raid on Sana Redoubt, August 11-12th, 1917?

Thanks, Eran

 

Edited 29 August , 2023 by Eran Tearosh

[stevenbecker]

Eran,

Sorry having now reread the document I see where your going

The raid Force is given as being drawn from No 5 and 9 Co and 6 & 7 Co's.

But a look at the main officers in the paper shows a little different.

The raid commander is Capt Julian Day 9Co

The paper mentions two officers in the attack force

Lt James Archibald 7Co

Lt Alfred Wallbank 10Co (possibly 6Co or 7Co for raid)

and these in the follow

Lt Stanley Combe 9Co

Lt Leonard Brothers 9Co

The man killed has been hard to confirm, and the wounded unknown as yet?

Champion    Oliver James    2363    Pte    shown 5Co ICC possibly killed during Sena raid 11/12-8-17 buried Gaza War Cemetery Palestine Ex 2/4 The Queen's West Surrey Regt rtn (T/20643)     KIA 12-8-17        Sena Raid    Nok Little Sandhurst
 

As yet I am unsure who commanded the 5Co Sect in the raid?

A Camel Corps Section, is like at Cavalry Troop, or an Infantry Platoon

Some names of the main persons in the raid

Benbow    Arnold S.    50794    Pte    Tos 9Co 5-17 shown on Sena Raid 11/12-8-17 WIA 28-3-18 at Amman later Author "Personal Expirence" shown in Kew records Ex West Kent Yeo (661) and Royal East Kent Yeo (270535) to 1/1 Nottingham Yeo (Sherwood Rangers) (276917) brother Allen ICC

Archibald    James        2/Lt    possibly 26 MG Sqn (265 MG Co) 10-16? Tos 7Co 24-3-17 shown as raiding party in Sena Raid 11/12-8-17 MC - for his actions in charge at Yahudiey (Yafa Hill) 27-11-17 WIA 29-11-17 at Bald Hill shown with Buxton's Force to TEL 7-18 WIA 8-8-18 at Mudawarra to 4 weeks leave UK 10-18 rtn 1-19 Ex Sgt 1/3 Scottish Horse (118) reported convert to 26 MG Sqn 10-16 DCM - reason not stated and Corps of Hussars

Brothers    Leonard Charles        2/Lt    Tos 9Co 4-4-17 shown in Sena Raid 11/12-8-17 to OC 9Co (Newsam KIA) 3-18 shown OC at Musselabeh 4-18 to 11-18 MC - for his actions at Amman 30-3-18 shown rtn 9Co 7-18 to 5Co 1-10-18 to T/OC 5Co 2-19 to disch 3-19 Ex Sgt 1/1 County of London Yeo (Middlesex Hussars) (3333) noted for his "coolness and dash" at Suvla Bay in August 1915 

Bunbury    Douglas St Pierre        Lt    possibly Tos 5Co 5-16 to Capt OC 5Co (from Wilson) 2-4-17 shown on Sena Raid 11/12-8-17 WIA 3-11-17 & PoW 3-11-17 captured at Daharryeh on the Hebron road att Newcombes Force to Kedos 122 camp in Turkey repat end of war Ex Somali CC to 8 Res Cav Regt later Basutoland Mounted Police South Africa died 1950 related Henry St Pierre Bunbury 21st Regt British Army & explorer in NSW Tas & WA of whom the city of Bunbury WA is named involved in the "pacification" of the Avon valley notorious for his extensive collection of Aboriginal ears North-West Frontier of India in 1849 and the Crimean war retired 1862 Born 1812 died 1875 father the late Gen AC Bunbury Bengal Staff 

Combe or Coombe     Stanley Greatrex        2/Lt    Tos 9Co 4-16 (commanded 1/3 County of London Yeo sect) shown with Lt Brothers in raid at Sena Redoubt 11/12-8-17 att bomb instructor HQ/ICC Bde 12-17 to UK leave rtn 4-18 died dysentry at 26 BSH buried Ismailia War Cemetery Egypt Ex 1/3 County of London Yeo (Sharpshooters) (648) 

Day    Julian        Capt    possibly 9Co? to OC 9Co (possibly when Orchardson KIA) 4-17 shown 1 killed and 3 wounded when commander raid at Sena Redoubt 11/12-8-17 (shown T/OC 8Co (from Paterson) 11-17? to Tredinnick 2-18 dates not shown in Inchbald book page 109) shown from OC 10Co to Intell officer & 2ic HQ/2Bn (Buxton T/CO) 1-18 to 3-18 WIA 30-3-18 & MC + MID - possibly for his work at Amman to A/Maj 10Co 4-18 to UK leave 7-18 to 8Co dates? Ex 2/Lt 1/1 West Kent Yeo to British Red Cross Society

Deas    Edwin Hogg        Lt    Tos 7Co 7-16 shown as OC Scouts in Sena Raid 11/12-8-17 shown OC 7Co (from Bell-Irving) 3-18 MC - for his actions at Amman 28-3-18 to Capt to hosp 8-18 Ex 2/Lt 1/1 Scottish Horse Yeo 

Horton    James ?        2/Lt    posibly 6Co? ICC shown in raid at Sena Redoubt 11/12-8-17 possibly 10Co possibly Ex 1/1 Lincoln Yeo? & CTC

Inwood    CR        T/Capt    OC Camel (10th) Field Troop RE ICC 3-17 shown at 2nd Gaza with 20 men 4-17 shown at Sena raid 11/12-8-17 Ex Lt Royal Engineers

Leonard    N/R        2/Lt    possibly 6Co or 7Co shown as guide Bde Tape party in Sena Raid 11/12-8-17

Pettit    Hubert Ronald         Lt    Tos 6Co 5-16 ICC (commanded Shropshire sect) to OC 6Co (de Knoop kia) 8-8-16 to A/Capt 9-16 T/att Yeo Res Co CTU (Pape on UK leave) 5-17 WIA 27-3-17 L/leg shot at 1st Gaza shown as pacemaker & rear guard commander in Sena Raid 11/12-8-17 T/att CTU (Buxton on leave) 9-17 to OC 5Co (from Bunbury PoW) 8-11-17 to T/Maj recom MC to UK leave 12-17 Ex 2/Lt Kings Shropshire Light Infantry and 1/1 Shropshire Yeo to Maj 10-2-22 to LtCol 10-2-28 later Hon/Col Shropshire Yeo 10-2-32

Rowan    Robert        Lt    ToS possibly 26 MG Sqn (265 MG Co) or 7Co 10-16 shown as Intell officer HQ/ICC Bde during Sena raid 11/12-8-17 shown 7Co on patrol with Lt Flannery and Braine & 51 men to Maghara 7-18 shown 7Co to Intell officer HQ 2Bn with Buxton's Force to TEL 7-18 murdered reported accidently (murdered at a water hole) killed by arab (TELs bodyguard) at (Azrak) Wadi Rumm buried Ramleh War Cemetery Palestine Ex Pte 1/2 Scottish Horse to Gallipoli 9-15 prom 2/Lt 1916 age 26 brothers John & Gilbert

Tredinnick    Harry Walter        2/Lt    Tos 3 sect 6Co 5-16 (commanded Montgomery sect) (reported T/OC 6Co after Pettit wounded) 3-17 shown as guide in Sena Raid 11/12-8-17 to OC Britsh Res Co CTU (from Snow) 1-18 shown Capt OC 8Co (from Paterson or Day?) 2-18? to T/Adjt HQ/2Bn (Hornby WIA at Amman) 4-18 shown Adjt HQ/2Bn with Buxton's Force to TEL 7-18 MC & MID - reason not stated Ex L/Cpl 1st Rhodesian Regt (570) * in German West Africa 1914/15 and 2/Lt 1/1 Montgomery Yeo

Turnour 6th Earl of Winterton     Edward        Maj    Tos OC 9Co 4-16 to 3-17 to UK leave 10-16 to 2ic HQ/2Bn 3-17 shown during Sena raid 11/12-8-17 shown to OC ICC depot Abbassia 9-17 to hosp shown rtn OC ICC depot Abbassia (from Buxton) 1-18 shown T/att HQ/ICC Bde 4-18 to UK leave 5-18 shown rtn 2ic HQ/2Bn 7-18 reported on Mudawarra raid remained with TEL after ICC returned to Egypt MID - reason not stated to 3 weeks leave UK 10-18 Ex 1/1 Sussex Yeo elected as an MP member for Horsham in 1904 later Under Secretary of State for India & Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster

Wallbank    Alfred L.        2/Lt    possibly Tos 6Co or 7Co with Lt Colley 6-17 shown as raiding party in Sena Raid 11/12-8-17 possibly to 10Co 9-17 WIA 27-3-18 at Amman Ex Sgt Worcester Regt (3058) and Corps of Hussars

Eran,

as to Inchabald book his Company arrived with the 2Bn ICC after this raid and he does not mention it.

Aussie accounts (Reid, Hall and such) also don't mention the raid as we had little to do with it.

The entery for Aug 1917 in the Camel Bde War Diary is missing, while the 4Bn ICC, has only that it lent the 2Bn ICC, 2 officers and 56 men for the raid.

The document by Staurt24 was the first I heard of this raid and filled a gap.

11-8-17   reported 2Bn ICC group under LtCol Gardner (5Co 6Co 7Co 9Co) (26 officers 537 men) raid on the Sena Redoubt (raiding force 26 officers 432 men) + part (2 officers and 56 men) 4Bn ICC under LtCol Lee to support raid lost  (lost 1 KIA & 2 WIA)

Yes the 10Co was not in this action, but Wallbank is with that company, so he maybe attached to another Company or Bde HQ unknown?

Both Colley and Wallbank arrived at ICC Bde HQ 24-6-17 and were allocted to 10Co, but its possible they did go there as the Co rolls show when the Co arrived at Bde it had;

29-9-17  10Co (part) under Capt Wilkinson (4 officers 119 men) arrived at ICC Bde possibly (Bailey 2ic - Lyall - Redloff - Tyrrell - Heath)

Edited 30 August , 2023 by stevenbecker

[Eran Tearosh]

Thanks, Steve!

There is something I'm trying to understand about the deaths of the ICC. In CWGC records some are listed as ICC, but it seems that many others, like O. J. Champion, are mentioned in connection with their original unit (In Champion's case - 2/4 The Queen's West Surrey Regiment. The ICC is not mentioned in his CWGC record). 

Can you explain the differences? 

About Champion - you show him as 5 Coy, 2nd Battalion, ICC. What's your source?

Thanks for everything!

Eran

[stevenbecker]

Many ICC members are not recorded under that Corps. But there perant Corps/Regiments

As for Champion, I am still not 100% he is our man, he was the closest I could find with any conection to the Camel Corps.

I am still not sure when he died he was still with the Corps and not returned to his unit.

The Infantry man (from the 53rd and 54th Div's) who formed the 5th and 7th Companies have been a problem, the 7 Co was quickly disbanded due to the Infantry soldiers, while the 5th Company did better. But many also returned to there units 

The records show only five soldiers killed on that front between 11 Aug and 12 Aug 1917

OJ Champion 2/4 QWSR

JB Clay 15Bn Suffolk Regt 12-8-17

PJ Sheehen CMR NZEF 12-8-17

Alf Donaldson 1/6 HLI 11-8-17

F Edmunds RE 12-8-17

a further four soldiers died in Egypt

Bihari Indian Arty 11-8-17

ED Farrell 924Co HT 11-8-17

HJ Pring 390Bty 172Bde 11-8-17

HA Clarke 2 West Indian R 11-8-17

Of all those units only one is a possible and as it also was in the 5Co it made Champion a possible

26-5-16  5Co under Capt Wilson (53 Div (Welsh)  - (158 Bde - 1/1 Hereford, 1/5 to 1/7 Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 159 Bde - 1/4 & 1/6 Cheshire & 1/4 & 1/5 Welsh Regt, & 160 Bde - Monmouth, 1/4 Sussex, 2/4 Royal West Kent, 2/10 Middlesex & 2/4 Queens West Surrey Regt) arrived ICC depot (5Co war dairy also shows 1/6 Essex Regt)

Mate, if you can confirm we can put this to bed?

The account shows they evac three wounded soldiers during the raid, so he must have been alive and died either during the evac or at the Field aid post (some times shown as three wounded when there were two and one died/killed)

The Camel Bde Field Ambl was not in the show, or is not recorded in their War Diary they had medical aid?

PS,

Of cause if we look further you find at lest three more soldiers who died a few days after and units were part of the 5th Company ICC

ED Barker 2/10 Midsex 13-8-17

R Harris 2/10 Midsex 14-8-17

AFR Smith 2/10 Midsex 15-8-17

Not having the War Diary I am unsure if killed with unit or somewhere else?

Edited 30 August , 2023 by stevenbecker

[Eran Tearosh]

Hi Steve

Thanks! I assumed so far that all ICC recruits were from mounted parent units. However, from your notes, I understand that this is not always the case. 

Going through the ICC orders & C.O. 2nd Battalion orders of this raid I see that there was a medical aid post in the rear of the Raid H.Q. (And thanks again to Stuart for sending this file!). I'll try to see if I can find something on that. 

Eran

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Both No 5 and No 7 Companies were recruited from the Infantry

26-5-16  5Co under Capt Wilson (53 Div (Welsh)  - (158 Bde - 1/1 Hereford, 1/5 to 1/7 Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 159 Bde - 1/4 & 1/6 Cheshire & 1/4 & 1/5 Welsh Regt, & 160 Bde - Monmouth, 1/4 Sussex, 2/4 Royal West Kent, 2/10 Middlesex & 2/4 Queens West Surrey Regt) arrived ICC depot (5Co war dairy also shows 1/6 Essex Regt)

31-5-16  7Co (54 Div (East Anglian) - 161 Bde - (1/4 to 1/17 Essex Regt, 162 Bde - 1/5 Bedford, 1/4 Northampton & 1/10 to 1/11 London Regt, 163 Bde - 1/4 to 1/5 Norfolk, 1/5 Suffolk & 1/8 Hampshire Regt) arrived ICC depot

But 

28-6-16   7Co (54 Div)  disbanded

4-7-16   new 7Co under Capt Gregorey (1st (Highland Yeomanry) Mtd Bde - 1/1 Scottish Horse, 1/1 Ayrshire, 1/1 Lanark, 1/1 Fife & Forfar, 1/1 & 1/2 Lovat Scouts and Lothians Yeo) arrived ICC depot

It was found that the Infantry (at lest) British Infantry were not good riders, while the first four Aussie Camels Companies were drawn from the Infantry but had little trouble.

Probly because many Aussie's came from a country that still used a lot of horses to get around. Thats the only reason why I can think?

Cheers

S.B

[stevenbecker]

There is a bit in the War Diaries of the Anzac Mounted Div and NZM Bdes on this operation

But mostly dealing with the operations before the raid.

The NZM Bde carried out the recee of the place, to enable the raid troops to move up and make ready to attack.

While they show almost nothing on the attack 

Since British Infantry were to support the attack, I wonder if there dairies show any details?

S.B

[Eran Tearosh]

Hi

The NZMR carried at least 4 recess of Sana. 2 at the end of July and 2 just before the raid.

The info from July assisted to build the model and was the base of the orders.

However, the info from August showed the place was reduced in force, and that's why the orders were changed.

 

As to the infantry - Div. 52 just held a line north of the ICC. The physical connection was by mounted troops of the Glasgow Yeomanry, and in addition - some Harts Yeomanry covered the ICC's right. They were supposed to connect to the NZMR, but that never happened.

There was also some artillery activity

 

Eran