NATIONAL LIBRARY OF SCOTLAND v IWM-A GRUMBLE

[Guest]

OK, folks-this is just a grumble-might even get uprated to a rant-wont go further as the veins in my neck will probably explode as I go bright red and froth at the mouth

I have just had a serious look at the materials digitised by the National Library of Scotland which have proved to be well done and in a very user friendly format- that is, Army Lists, Navy Lists, Air Force Lists-and a pretty good (I suspect nigh on complete set) of Rolls of Honour for Scotland. (And the Ordnance Survey-unrelated to this Forum is another good friend)

So congratulation, NLS- a job well done

What a contrast with the dog-in-a-ditch attitude of IWM- would we please all contribute to their Lives of the First World War- Well, yes- but dont you think it would have been useful to have digitised resources to enable it to be done more efficiently???

How about the English and Welsh rolls of honour????? (Apologies to the Cymru-I am aware of the National Library of Wales)

Have I missed some great project here that IWM is doing vis a vis digitisation? If I have,I will gladly apologise. But its not good that the premier holding of WW! materials has proved so lacklustre and unhelpful. Given the amount of Lottery/Heritage/Government funds for the centenary, the contribution of IWM -or,rather, lack of it does not make me want to bust a gut to do anything to help them.

Current pulse rate: 108, face crimson veering scarlet-Im off for a long.cool, non-alcoholic drink.

[ss002d6252]

OK, folks-this is just a grumble-might even get uprated to a rant-wont go further as the veins in my neck will probably explode as I go bright red and froth at the mouth

I have just had a serious look at the materials digitised by the National Library of Scotland which have proved to be well done and in a very user friendly format- that is, Army Lists, Navy Lists, Air Force Lists-and a pretty good (I suspect nigh on complete set) of Rolls of Honour for Scotland. (And the Ordnance Survey-unrelated to this Forum is another good friend)

So congratulation, NLS- a job well done

What a contrast with the dog-in-a-ditch attitude of IWM- would we please all contribute to their Lives of the First World War- Well, yes- but dont you think it would have been useful to have digitised resources to enable it to be done more efficiently???

How about the English and Welsh rolls of honour????? (Apologies to the Cymru-I am aware of the National Library of Wales)

Have I missed some great project here that IWM is doing vis a vis digitisation? If I have,I will gladly apologise. But its not good that the premier holding of WW! materials has proved so lacklustre and unhelpful. Given the amount of Lottery/Heritage/Government funds for the centenary, the contribution of IWM -or,rather, lack of it does not make me want to bust a gut to do anything to help them.

Current pulse rate: 108, face crimson veering scarlet-Im off for a long.cool, non-alcoholic drink.

I think all round E&W are poorly served when you look at the way some countries national records are digitised although we do seem to slowly catching up (if not at the same level of cost) - the IWM must have huge archives just ripe for digitising.

Craig

[Guest]

Craig- You have been most helpful to me across the months- a lot of good knowledge given with a good heart.It has brightened my resolve to do the job properly.

But if you are bashing away at an unfamiliar subject-and its a great learning process- then it just grates that with a bit of planning and the removal of the jobsworth gene from whoever works at IWM would have made the efforts of all of us- tyro or expert- that much easier. A great feature of this forum is the genuinely helpful and constructive way that virtually anything asked brings about an informed response. How much better for all of us that the end product of all the work was enhanced by easier access to awkward resources. I am fortunate-I can get to IWM if needs be. But for those doing,say,a Roll of Honour out in the sticks ,then what is the point of sitting on huge quantities of material and doing b*****r all about making it accessible.

I am now not keen on putting any of the 366 casualties for Wanstead up on Lives of the First World War- I was having difficulty accessing a couple of obscure WW! books and wanted to avoid going to IWM-as an antiquarian bookseller for much of my life, I know my way round the system and can spot an unhelpful library at a thousand paces. And then I though-Hang on, my work will be the lesser because,effectively, IWM are making it harder and harder to access any of its resources- and-grumble,grumble, they still expect people to contribute to Lives of the First World War- for which they will get all the brownie points. There is an old American saying from the railroad era- "Always join the construction crew, not the demolition gang" About time those in Lambeth realised that setting up a website for others to do the work-and then obstructing people with goodwill from doing it -does seem totally bloodyminded and unhelpful.

Pulse down to 85. Mild reddening of cheeks- Stopped growling as my son's dog does when he doesn't like something. Back to normal Victor Meldrew curmudgeon in about half an hour .

PS-Have you had a look at Gallica- some obscure French stuff there-its the digital version of the Bibliotheque Nationale

[ss002d6252]

Craig- You have been most helpful to me across the months- a lot of good knowledge given with a good heart.It has brightened my resolve to do the job properly.

But if you are bashing away at an unfamiliar subject-and its a great learning process- then it just grates that with a bit of planning and the removal of the jobsworth gene from whoever works at IWM would have made the efforts of all of us- tyro or expert- that much easier. A great feature of this forum is the genuinely helpful and constructive way that virtually anything asked brings about an informed response. How much better for all of us that the end product of all the work was enhanced by easier access to awkward resources. I am fortunate-I can get to IWM if needs be. But for those doing,say,a Roll of Honour out in the sticks ,then what is the point of sitting on huge quantities of material and doing b*****r all about making it accessible.

I am now not keen on putting any of the 366 casualties for Wanstead up on Lives of the First World War- I was having difficulty accessing a couple of obscure WW! books and wanted to avoid going to IWM-as an antiquarian bookseller for much of my life, I know my way round the system and can spot an unhelpful library at a thousand paces. And then I though-Hang on, my work will be the lesser because,effectively, IWM are making it harder and harder to access any of its resources- and-grumble,grumble, they still expect people to contribute to Lives of the First World War- for which they will get all the brownie points. There is an old American saying from the railroad era- "Always join the construction crew, not the demolition gang" About time those in Lambeth realised that setting up a website for others to do the work-and then obstructing people with goodwill from doing it -does seem totally bloodyminded and unhelpful.

Pulse down to 85. Mild reddening of cheeks- Stopped growling as my son's dog does when he doesn't like something. Back to normal Victor Meldrew curmudgeon in about half an hour .

PS-Have you had a look at Gallica- some obscure French stuff there-its the digital version of the Bibliotheque Nationale

I can't disagree - a bit give and take would certainly make the work easier (and more rewarding all round).

Craig

[dink_and_pip]

Their Women's collection was digitised and access was freely available through Gale. Whether this was a loophole which has since been plugged I can no longer access or find any reference to the collection.

Http//www.tlemea.com/waw.asp

[Phil Wood]

Their Women's collection was digitised and access was freely available through Gale. Whether this was a loophole which has since been plugged I can no longer access or find any reference to the collection.

Http//www.tlemea.com/waw.asp

Freely available through Gale seems like an oxymoron to me.

[stirrer]

I got on to the IWM website for the first time yesterday - managed to register - then thought I would try to give them information about relatives. I've given up for the moment, it's too involved.

[dink_and_pip]

I got the links through Google which led to essays about the collection which had further links to the archive material. This was all in www.tlemea.com

I downloaded many pages without restriction and saved the searches. Recently however all links redirect.

[Steven Broomfield]

Freely available through Gale seems like an oxymoron to me.

I thought it sounded like a euphemism.

To be fair to the IWM, however, they must have wall to wall and ceiling tall amounts of stuff to digitise whereas other resources are, shall we say, less well stocked.

[Guest]

Steven- yes, fairness-They have the material-they have a calendar-its not that hard to compute that the centenary of WW1 might-phew,what a revelation- start in 2014. Like you, I see many local Rolls done by people with a lot of enthusiasm, prepared to do the dog work and come up with small local pieces of a larger mosaic- But IWM just don't seem bothered- Lives of the First World War is basically a rehash of CWGC and a plea for well-intentioned folk to do IWM work for them. I don't think its good enough.

OK, all people on the Forum could make a list of what they would want digitised-but surely to God, Rolls would be a good start. Look at what is out there for plodders like me- Ancestry and FMP have had a good go at doing things-OK,there is a strong commercial motive. TNA had done well- we may complain about the hit and miss of war diaries but there is a good amount there- Officers files are coming on. National Army Museum chipped in with Soldiers Effects.

I think IWM as a library is dead- and like Bishop Berkeley and the puzzle of whether a tree falling over in a forest making no noise, then a library/archive which is locked up, going for more restricted hours is dead-it does not exis if it is not usedt- My philosophic point is that the materials only exist as a listing,not as a reality to use.Yes, they have wall-to-wall stuff-all the more reason for getting it digitised. Libraries who have done this with other materials have benefitted all of us- eg my old college, LSE, digitised its pamphlet collections on JSTOR- which is cost-efficient- it saves librarian time fetching and humping, it saves the wear and tear on the original and it it opens up resources 24 hours online worldwide. Its cost efficient-Pays for itself. Win-win. Or Kings College with the Foreign Office pamphlet collection similarly on JSTOR.

IWM is dead- I have seen several other libraries go the same way- The Womens Library, now at LSE is a delight. The old Royal Commonwealth Society library now at Cambridge is accessible. Its shouts out 2 things to me

I) The Higher Authority (Lets use the terminology of the Luftwaffe colonel in The Great Escape) wants IWM to shut down its library and archive- looks like the obvious home is Kings College, with perhaps a side bet on National Army Museum. Only then would there be some extended form of improved access.

ii) The likes of me and thee (well, probably not thee) are regarded as irrelevant anoraks- merely trainspotters who have run out of engines. IWM seems concerned with professional academic research only-that is, PHD and beyond. We are irrelevant-we cost too much per enquiry and use up too much staff time and resources. Great as far as it goes-IWM moves to a Theme Park approach and that's fine by me-bums on seats, funding,statistics, Department of Media,Culture,Sport,etc-Yes, I get it.

But a century building up the greatest possible resource and then restricting it by such a dog-in-a-ditch attitude does grate.

Phew,my arteries are still intact

Steve and Craig- could you please look at a new thread about Middlebrook's Somme and Patrick Mahoney. Its part of the same problem but I suspect an answer is out there somewhere.

[Kemmel]

NLS have an online GIS which has some WW1 Trench Maps - see link. The GIS also has old OS plan 25 inch for part of GB and 6 inch full coverage, as well as geology overlay etc..

Regards

Andrew

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=12&lat=50.7713&lon=2.8283&layers=101464927