35th Company RE

[mutley]

I'm currently researching a chap who served in both wars, sadly loosing his life while a prisoner of the Japenese and his service record shows him serving with the 35th Company RE from 1914 to 1918 and then with 20th Army Troops Company. So far I've drawn a blank on the 35th Coy, I can't find them in the War Diaries or on The Long Long Trail.

Does anybody have any information on this particular unit? My man was a 'wheeler' by trade and in July 1914 he was at the Ordnance Collage, completing his 'Wheeler Supervisor' course.

Many thanks in advance.

Daz

[Terry_Reeves]

Daz

35 Army Troops Company: WO95 /4454 and WO95/4730. and downloadable for a small fee from TNA.

TR

[mutley]

Terry

Thanks but thats not them unfortunately, his record shows him deploying to France and qualifying for the Bar to his 1914 Star as part of 35 Coy RE, not 35 Army Troops Company. I can't find a WD for 35 Coy RE and the one for 35 Army Tps Coy doesn't start until Jan 1917. Perhaps it is a mistake by the Clerk, my wife says it maybe 33rd Coy so I'll have to explore that now.

Regards

Daz

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Daz

RE companies other than signals were numbered in a single sequence so 35 Coy and 35 Army Troops Coy are one and the same.

Ron

[mutley]

Ron

Thanks for that but there is something wrong here and I can't work it out. According to his service record, my man enlisted in Tipperary in Aug 1912 and after completing his training moves to 39th Company RE in June 1913. From there he moves to the Ordnance College at Woolwich to complete his 'Wheeler Supervisor' course. On 30th Aug 1914 his service record shows him transferring to either 35th or 33rd Company (I think its 35th my wife thinks 33rd lol). His medal index card shows him entering France on 15 September 1914. The next entry on his file is a transfer to 20th Army Troops Company No 21on 28th April 1918.

I can't find a War Diary for 1914 for either of these two units, so is this a clerical error and he went to France as part of another unit and its just not recorded or am I missing something?

Daz

[Terry_Reeves]

Daz

I might be better if you posted his name and number so that the confusion can be sorted out. If it is 33 Coy it will be 33 Base Park Company. Prior to the war RE companies were normally referred by their company number alone, which often carried on in service records. The descriptive unit titles expanded rapidly in WW1 because of the proliferation of different types of unit and the change in roles for some of them.

TR

[mutley]

Terry

Thanks, I've done some more digging on this and his 1914 Star appears on the Medal Roll of miscellaneous RE units and on closer looking at his service record it does appear to be 33rd Company (don't tell the wife she was right lol). Now to see if I can find a War Diary for 33 Base Park Company.

The man in question is Sapper J J Cantwell. His records aren't online I had to request them from the MoD.

Thanks again

Daz

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Daz

There was a 32nd Base Park Company, but not a 33rd as far as I can see.

Have another look at the figures 33/35. Could they in fact be 38? This Field Company went to France in September 1914 as part of 6th Division.

Ron

[mutley]

So this is the entry on his records, dated 30/08/14, I guess it could be any of the following, 32nd, 33rd or 35th and looking at it now I'm leaning towards 32nd. Sadly I don't think it can be 38th even though that does tie in with his deployment to France.

Any suggestions appreciated.

Daz

[Ron Clifton]

Daz

I've now had a chance to look at the Army List for August 1914.

I think it is 35th Coy, which was a Fortress Coy based at Pembroke Dock as part of Western Coast Defences. 33rd Coy was another Fortress Coy based at Crosshaven, Co. Cork, as part of South Irish Coast Defences. 32nd Coy was yet another, but based in Gibraltar.

59th and 38th Coys were both Field Coys, part of 5th and 6th Divisions respectively, both of which were based in Ireland prior to mobilisation.

As a "Wheeler Supervisor" I should think his skills would have been better employed in a Field Coy rather than a Fortress Coy (these latter were subsequently renamed Army Troops Coys, or in some cases Base Park Coys), and was transferred into a field company shortly after war was declared. Previous service with 59th Coy might suggest he rejoined them - units in peacetime had a smaller establishment than in war, and had to have extra men drafted in. Normally these were Reservists but Sapper Cantwell was a specialist so he might have filled a gap in the peace strength.

He could still have been part of 33rd Coy, although the two figures are so distinct that I doubt it. That would, however, tie in nicely with the Irish connections. But Pembroke Dock is only just across the Irish Sea!

I would be interested to see Terry's comments on this analysis, as he knows more than I do about the RE.

Ron

[mutley]

Ron

Thank you for your comments but what I don't understand is who he went to France with. He seems to spend the rest of the First World War and immediately post the war with Army Troop Companies:

28 Apr 18 20th A Tps Co No 21

01 Jan 19 20th A Tps Co No 7

13 Feb 19 20th A Tps Co No 16

NK 289 A Tps Coy

02 Feb 20 145 Army Troops

21 Feb 20 24 Base Park Coy Cologne

13 May 20 G Depot Coy

He was awarded an MM in 1918 whilst serving with 20th Army Tps Coy and he is gazetted for it in Jan 1918 an his award card shows him as being with them in January while his record only shows him formally on their strength from 28 Apr 18.

Regards

Daz

[Ron Clifton]

Daz

It is possible that there is one or more sheets missing from his record, which would show any postings between Aug 1914 and Feb 1918. 20 Fortress (later AT) Coy went abroad with the original BEF and he may have joined them in Sep 1914.

Ron

[Terry_Reeves]

Ron's post (no 10) is quite correct as far as locations on 4th August 1914 is concerned and for a few months beyond, but after that it gets a bit more complex. A number of the fortress companies , at home and abroad, were converted to army troops companies, advanced park companies or base park companies. Just to show how complex this could be, 1st Company at Gibraltar was sent home to be converted to an advance park company and arrived in France in early 1915 as such, only to be converted to a base park company some four weeks later.

As Ron has noted, 35 Company was a Fortress Company at Pembroke Dock on the outbreak of war. However, the embarkation roll shows that it embarked for Egypt on 25th April 1917 but the available war diaries do not start start until January 1917. I would agree with Ron, that there might well be something missing from his papers. It is difficult too tell from the two lines you have posted from his service record, but they do seem remarkably clear. is it possible that they might be a reconstruct?

TR

[mutley]

Ron, Terry

I have been looking at the whole record today and later in his WW2 papers there is a typed transcript of his movements which says that the unit is 35 Company. I am still working through it with a fine tooth comb and at the moment I'm inclined to agree with Ron that there is an entry missing; my gut feeling is that he actually deployed to France as part of 20 Army Troops Company which as you've already said was originally a Fortress Company. I have downloaded their War Diary from the NA and had a quick scan through but there are no nominal rolls that I can see.

His MM medal card shows him as being part of 20th Army Troops Company and the schedule number fits in with an action during October or November 1917 yet his service record only shows him as being promoted to Cpl whilst with that unit in 1918, it doesn't show him joining it.

So my best guess is that as you have both suggested his war movements are missing; and I'm guessing that he deployed to join 20th Army Troops Company in France in September 1914 and spent the rest of the war with them, rising from Sapper to Cpl and winning an MM in the process.

He had a very interesting career after the war and served in Egypt, China and Hong Kong in the inter war years with short spells back in the UK. He was commissioned from WO, awarded an MBE and appointed as QM of Malaya Command in Singapore where he was captured by the Japanese. He almost made it through the war but died of stomach cancer in April 1945 whilst held as a POW.

Thank you both very much for your help.

Daz