"Fighting age'' criteria for internment of UK German civi

[MaureenE]

I am trying to work out whether someone I am interested in would have been interned during WW1, or whether he would have been considered too old.

He was a baker, of German origin living in London, Daniel Schmeising, I think born about 1870. Two of his nephews served with the British Army and have Medal Index cards.

From the website of the Anglo-German Family History Society

"At the outbreak of the war there were thousands of German families living in UK. Few had naturalised so the males of fighting age were interned"

http://www.agfhs.org/site/documents/Tracing%20Your%20German%20Ancestors_Part%20I.pdf

Cheers

Maureen

[MaureenE]

I have found some links:

Enemy Aliens and Internment

http://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/enemy_aliens_and_internment which states " Only after the outbreak of the " Lusitana riots" in May 1915 did the government resume its move towards wholesale internment of male enemy aliens aged seventeen to fifty-five"

Prisoners of War and Internees (Great Britain)

http://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/prisoners_of_war_and_internees_great_britain

I have looked in the ICRC "Prisoners of the First World War" without success.

Does anyone know whether it is likely/certain that Daniel Schmeising would have been interned, or was it discretional? He had an English wife. Would his occupation as a baker have made a difference?

It also seems that he was bankrupt at this time. Bankrupt proceedings were commenced in 1907, and there is an item in the London Gazette in 1927, that he was to be discharged in 1928. (London Gazette Publication date: 8 February 1927 Issue:33246 Page:926)

Cheers

Maureen

[johnboy]

There is a listing for Daniel W on FMP showing him as G84198 Mddx Reg and issued SWB.

[johnboy]

Ancestry show a MiC BWM & V

also Urban A MiC shows 39352 Royal Fusiliers and G31971 Mddx Reg BWM & V

[MaureenE]

Thanks john boy for looking these up. These are the nephews of 'my' Daniel Schmeising born about 1870, or more strictly speaking, children of a cousin. I have recently found in the London Gazette that the two brothers who served in the war changed their surname to Stenning in 1921. The timing seems a bit odd. You would think they may have done it earlier in the war.

Cheers

Maureen

[kenf48]

Thanks john boy for looking these up. These are the nephews of 'my' Daniel Schmeising born about 1870, or more strictly speaking, children of a cousin. I have recently found in the London Gazette that the two brothers who served in the war changed their surname to Stenning in 1921. The timing seems a bit odd. You would think they may have done it earlier in the war.

Cheers

Maureen

Not that odd, subject to certain conditions it was illegal for someone who was not a British born subject, to assume a new name, 'other than that by which he was ordinarily know at the date of the commencement of the war' Defence of the Realm Act Section 14H.

The status of his wife was defined by Part III British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act (sometimes known as 'Hun Wives')

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1914/17/pdfs/ukpga_19140017_en.pdf

That would have been irrelevant to his status as an 'enemy' alien, in fact many women who were British born were deported. In October 1914 the Times reported on the conviction of the British wife of a German confectioner, both of whom were registered who travelled more than five miles without a permit. The fact she went twice to Lowestoft no doubt made it worse and she was sentenced to one month's imprisonment for each offence, to run consecutively ans was sent to Holloway.

He did come within the terms of internment that you refer to, although initially the age range was 17 and 45, so born in 1870 he was 44ish in 1914. He would, in all probability would have gone to one of the temporary camps around London and from there to the Isle of Man, some records have survived but very few

http://www.manxnationalheritage.im/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/CG4-Internment_Web.pdf

He could have as sought an exemption from a special tribunal, but they were not very sympathetic, it was reported in June 1915 there were 2,100 applications of which 286 were granted, a relatively small percentage. The fact he was an undischarged bankrupt would not have helped his case. The authorities were arresting and detaining 600-700 enemy aliens each day in the first months of the war, mostly in London.

From 1916 internees could be employed, and one of the specific classes were bakers.

Difficult to be certain unless you can find anything in the records but I'd say on the balance of probability he was interned.

Ken

[johnboy]

Difficult to be certain unless you can find anything in the records but I'd say on the balance of probability he was interned.

Ken

Just because no record or MiC has been found for him?

[kenf48]

Just because no record or MiC has been found for him?

?? Why would a 44 year old German baker have an mic?

On the balance of probability because from the beginning of August German shops, bakers and butchers were attacked and looted in London and elsewhere. The riots and looting peaked in May 1915 after the sinking of the Lusitania and are still the greatest anti-immigrant riots in London to date. Germans and Austrians were rounded up in every major town and city, inLondon there was not enough transport and furniture vans and pantechnicons were used to transport them to Alexandra Palace and Olympia at the rate of 600-700 per day.

Any German or 'enemy alien' who escaped the process of internment or deportation was lucky, all Germans in the City of London suffered this fate. It's perhaps interesting that Jerry White in 'Zeppelin Nights' notes 'the German baker was a important member of working class and lower middle class communities and often regarded with affection.' This was not enough to protect them or their premises from the anti-German feeling and 'spy mania' prevalent in the early months of the war.

Ken

[johnboy]

I confused myself by reading another thread about the family by Maureen on another website.

[MaureenE]

Thanks Ken for your interesting comments.

Just to clarify about the two who changed their names - they were two younger Schmeisings who served in the British Army, and whose details johnboy has provided, both of whom were born in England.

My grandfather Frederick Adam Schmidt, who was related to the Schmeisings, was one who didn't change his name, even when fighting against the Germans on the Western Front. My grandfather, a professional soldier (supposedly) born in London, was by this time with the Australian Army (Artillery), and a sergeant later warrant officer. Perhaps his rank protected him from direct anti-German sentiment? Or were Australians more tolerant? I have often wondered what my grandfather would have thought fighting on the Western Front so close to where his parents, and other family came from.

Cheers

Maureen

[Old Scalyback]

I have followed this thread with interest as it parallels my wife's family history. Her Grandfather Olaf Kronquist the London born son of a Swedish Immigrant Tailor was married to Lilian Brohl the London born daughter of German parents. His younger Brothers Len and Archie Both enlisted as Conquest. Len in 1914 was KIA at Ypres in march 1915 and Archie enlisted in New Zealand after his brothers death. Olaf was Conscripted as Kronquist and changed the family name in 1922.

I suspect that volunteers with foreign sounding names were able to enlist under an alias while conscripts were obliged to serve with the name on their call up notice. Lilian had 4 brothers of military age and I am now going to research them and their Father.

[Old Scalyback]

Maureen

I have been rooting around on Discovery at the TNA without any hits on my Brohls and found the following interesting pieces.

HO144 looks promising as anyone not on the lists could be presumed to have been interned. HO45 was apparently mostly destroyed by bombing in WW2. Both are not digitised. Ancestry has done the one thing it is good at and offered me a range of sounds like matches for Brohl and probate records show that George Brohl seniors Executor was his son Frank Browell and there are MICs that may match 2 of the 4 Boys as Browell both with 14-15 stars ,the youngest born in 1904 being too young until 1919.

and to cap it all George Brohl senior was a Baker from West Prussia.

regards Brian

HO 144/11720 Lists of Aliens Exempted from Internment 1915.

HO 45/11522/287235 sample of the Register of aliens 1915-1924 some 2000 entries​

[MaureenE]

The following link was seen on another Forum

Aliens (Restriction) Act 1914 by Jonathan Swan

Criminal Law and Justice Weekly Vol.180 August 13 2016

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/306082819_Aliens_Restriction_Act_1914

Note however, at the bottom of pages there appears to be at least a  line of text missing.

 

It is stated that initially alien enemies were given a short period to leave the country.

 

I came  across the following, although I haven't read it

Control of enemy alien civilians in Great Britain 1914-1918 by John Clement  Bird (1981)  PhD thesis, London School of Economics and Political Science http://etheses.lse.ac.uk/1983/ 

 

Cheers

Maureen

[Kath]

Is this him?

FMPast.

1915	Britain, enemy aliens and internees, First and Second World Wars

 

I did not find hm in the BNArchive.

Kath.

[MaureenE]

Many thanks  Kath.

 

I will need to check back into my notes. From memory,  I do not think Daniel Schmeising had 8 children, so possibly it is someone else, but probably a relation.

 

Cheers

Maureen