Private A Bunting, Manchester Regiment

[The Scorer]

Readers of Charlie May's Diaries will know that Private Bunting was his servant, and moved to be the servant of another officer when Charlie was killed.

However, he later became a Prisoner of War, and is recorded on the CWGC web site as having died in December 1918. This is his record:

Rank: Private

Service No: 21090

Date of Death: 13/12/1918

Age: 33

Regiment: 22nd Battalion, Manchester Regiment

Grave Reference: Special Memorial.

Cemetery: Vittener Cemetery, Klaipeda, Lithuania

Additional Information: Son of Charles Bunting, of Manchester; husband of Effie Bunting (nee Young), of 19, Shakespeare Street,

Ardwick, Manchester.

I'm sure that I read at the end of Charlie May's book that he was (or was going to be) remembered on the 1914-1918 First World War Memorial at Brookwood Cemetery, but when I looked at it last week, I couldn't find his name.

Can someone tell me whether this statement is correct and, if so, when he's going to be added, please?

Thank you.

[John_Hartley]

The grave registration document on his CWGC record indicates a commeoration on the Brookwood (Russia) Memorial.

Have to say, I don't understand why a commemoration in the UK when he seems properly commemorated at Vittener.

[The Scorer]

The grave registration document on his CWGC record indicates a commeoration on the Brookwood (Russia) Memorial.

Have to say, I don't understand why a commemoration in the UK when he seems properly commemorated at Vittener.

Thanks ... and no, I didn't understand that, either.

However, does the reference to the Vittener grave being a Special Memorial mean that the actual grave has been lost? If this is the case, it would make the inclusion on the Memorial at Brookwood seem sensible, wouldn't it?

[John_Hartley]

Special memorials usually imply a lost grave. They are quite common. My great uncle is commemorated on one at Hannescamps. There's no reason I can think of why CWGC should be considering a double memorial.

[David_Underdown]

I think that CWGC was not able to maintain graves in the USSR, hence the reference to the Brookwood (Russian) Memorial, if memory serves that memorial is no more (site resused in part for the new general Brookwood Memorial) and commemoration has been restored to original locations to far as possible.

[The Scorer]

Special memorials usually imply a lost grave. They are quite common. My great uncle is commemorated on one at Hannescamps. There's no reason I can think of why CWGC should be considering a double memorial.

Yes, it would be unusual if that was done, I agree - but see below!

I think that CWGC was not able to maintain graves in the USSR, hence the reference to the Brookwood (Russian) Memorial, if memory serves that memorial is no more (site resused in part for the new general Brookwood Memorial) and commemoration has been restored to original locations to far as possible.

So, it's possible that when the CWGC weren't able to maintain the graves, they added Private Bunting to the Russian Memorial. However, now that they are able to do this, they've decided not to carry his name forward to the new 1914-1918 Memorial.

This web site: http://www.wyrdlight.com/brookcwgc/Russiabmcpop.html contains this statement which seems to agree with this version:

"The Memorial was taken down in 2015 in keeping with CWGC policy: "As Graves and Memorials Located in Russia And The Baltic States Are Now Accessible The Memorial Has Now Been Removed". "

I think that this explains the situation adequately; thanks for all your help.

[Bruleo]

Apologies for jumping in on this topic.

 

I represent a growing number of British ex-pats that live in Klaipeda, Lithuanian where Private Bunting and another Private are remembered.

 

Each year on Remembrance Sunday, we always hold a small service or Remembrance at Vittener Cemetery, where we usually have representatives of the Lithuanian Navy, a local Pastor, a trumpeter and sometimes a local Choir. I personally have attended for each of the 12 years that I have resided in Klaipeda, despite sadly , the British Embassy here deciding no longer to officially support our endeavours a few years ago. The grave site is maintained by local expats, as is all the arrangements for the memorial services etc.

 

I am aiming to raise a little bit of awareness amongst the community here, as well as further afield, by setting up a website dedicated to the two Privates (Private A. Bunting of the Manchester Regiment and Private J. W Crockson of The Somerset Light Infantry).

 

To that end, I am attempting to find as much information as possible, including possible photographs, service records etc relating to these two soldiers.

 

I would be very grateful for any assistance.

 

Thank you for your time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[8055Bell]

This is a great image Bruleo and it's great to hear the care given to these graves.  Thanks for posting.  For more infomation on Pte Bunting try The Manchester Regiment Forum

[clk]

Hi Bruleo,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

I'll give Pte Crockson a bit of a go.

 

His CWRG records are here. They have him as 6296 JW Crockson, 1/Somerset Light Infantry - died 27.6.1917.

 

Unfortunately I didn't find any surviving service papers.

 

His Soldiers' Effects record indicates that he was James William and died in hospital on 27.6.1917, and that his outstanding pay, and war gratuity were paid to his wife - "Ellen M". The amount of war gratuity paid is indicative of "eligible" war service counting from the outbreak of the war in August 1914.

 

His 6296 service number would appear to date from 1901/02 - see here

 

His Soldiers' Died record indicates that he was born in, and a "resident" of Bermondsey, who enlisted in "New Kent Road, Surrey"

 

His medal roll records indicates that he entered theatre (1a - France and Flanders) on 21.8.1914 as a 1st Battalion man, and only served with that Battalion. It would seem that he was with the Battalion when they first went over. The Battalion war diary is here at the National Archives, or here on Ancestry.

 

He has a surviving will - £10 from here.

 

The Red Cross have some PoW records for him. The index cards are here. Use the 'PA' numbers shown to take you through to further records. It looks like be was serving with 'D' Company when he was taken PoW at Le Cateau on 26.8.1914.  Amongst other info the records say that he was born in 1884 in Bermondsey.

 

Given his DoB, place of birth. wife's name, etc hopefully you can pick him up in genealogy records, and wondered if you might find something about his pre 1914 service.

 

Looking at Findmypast here he appears to be mentioned in a newspaper report from February 1915. I don't have a current sub to look, but from the preview it looks like there are a couple of images on the page. I suspect that it would prove fruitless, but as a long shot it might be worth a look.

 

Regards

Chris

[PRC]

You’d have thought with all that it would be easy to track him down in the Civil Records, but no such luck.

 

The birth of a James William Crockson was registered in the St Olave District of London in the July to September quarter of 1884. That District included the Civil Parish of Bermondsey.

https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/st%20olave%20southwark.html

 

And then he disappears – nothing obvious on any of the censuses for England and Wales for a James. There is a William James born Bermondsey and of nearly the right age who appears on the 1891, 1901 and 1911 census, but a check of the birth records shows that the birth of a William James Crockson was registed in the St Olave District in the January to March quarter of 1883.

James William doesn’t appear to be on the Electoral Register either.

 

The most likely marriage was that of a James W. Crockson to an Ellen M O’Connor, which was recorded in the St Olave Southwark District of London in the July to September quarter of 1913.

A copy of the marriage certificate would give you the fathers name, (if known), trade and whether still alive, as well as the bridegrooms age, occupation and address. The witnesses could also throw up some family links.

 

A check of the General Registrars Index of Births for England and Wales for children registered with the surname Crockson, mothers maiden name O’Connor shows no likely children of James and Ellen.

 

It may be a co-incidence but an Ellen M Crockson married a William Barber in the April to June quarter of 1923 in the St. Olave Southwark District, London. Without any children from her first marriage, it would also provide a possible explanation for the non-existance of any Army Pension records for Ellen. Those records were, I understand, regularly weeded and destroyed throughout the twenties and thirties when it was established they were no longer needed. As the ones that survive have extracts from the service records this is a great loss from a research perspective.

 

Anyway – hope some of that helps,

Peter

 

[clk]

Hi,

 

Re Private A. Bunting of the Manchester Regiment:

 

His CWGC records are here. They have him as 21090 Pte A Bunting, 22/Manchester Regiment, died age 33 on 13th December 1918. He was the son of  Charles Bunting, of Manchester, and husband to Effie Bunting (nee Young) of 19, Shakespeare St., Ardwick, Manchester.

 

Unfortunately I didn't find any surviving service papers.

His Soldiers' Effects record indicates that he was Arthur Bunting and that he died in hospital  on 13.12.1918, and that his outstanding pay, and war gratuity were paid to his wife - "Effie". The amount of war gratuity paid is indicative of "eligible" war service counting from circa January 1915 - see here

 

His Soldiers' Died record indicates that he was born in Ardwick, Manchester, and that he enlisted in Manchester.

 

His medal roll records indicates that he entered theatre (France) on 12.11.1915 as a 22nd Battalion man, and only served overseas with that Battalion - going missing on 2.4.1917. It would seem that he was with the Battalion when they first went over. The Battalion war diary is fragmented at the National Archives - see here, or here on Ancestry.

 

The Red Cross have some PoW records for him. The 3 index cards are here. Use the 'PA' numbers shown to take you through to further records. It looks like he died as the result of  flu and inflammation of the lungs. Amongst other info the records say that he was born on 16.9.1885.

 

There is a record for his baptism in Ardwick in November 1885 which gives his father as Charles, and his mother as Emma.

 

In the 1911 census he is a coach painters labourer.

In the 1891 census he is here

 

Arthur and Effie married on 6th August 1910 - see here

 

Regards

Chris

[PRC]

Non-subscription sources:

 

Birth:

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/districts.pl?r=75163081:8388&d=bmd_1503998064

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2XGZ-M44

(Chorlton District included Ardwick)

 

Baptism.

https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5818644de93790ec8b5668fb?search_id=59cba3b6791e3bb8d8763106&ucf=false

(Address 41 Bennett Street in the Parish of St. Benedict, Ardwick).

 

1891 Census: (Basic transcription)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7CKH-MMM

 

1901 Census: (Basic transcription)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X92Z-HW2

 

Marriage - 6th August 1910 St Stephen, Chorlton-upon-Medlock. Effie was then aged 20.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:233L-26Y

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNTW-TPW

 

The birth of daughter Marjory was registered in the October to December quarter of 1910 in the Chorlton District.

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/districts.pl?r=124560600:5677&d=bmd_1503998064

 

1911 Census: (Basic transcription)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWBV-T2M

 

Possible children born after the 1911 census.

 

Mary A Bunting, mothers maiden name Young, Manchester District, registered July to September 1912.

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/districts.pl?r=128002368:8612&d=bmd_1503998064

 

James A. Bunting, mothers maiden name Young, Chorlton District, registered April to June 1915.

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/districts.pl?r=133515134:5140&d=bmd_1503998064

 

There is no obvious birth record for an "Effie" Young, although that was the name she was married under. On the 1911 census of England and Wales she is recorded as born Manchester.

There is no obvious re-marriage  record or death record  for an Effie Bunting in England and Wales or registered with a consulate or embassy overseas. The records I have access to go up to 2006 and so if she was born 1889/1890, (aged 21, on the 1911 census, 20 when she married in August 1910), then she would have been quite long-lived to have died after that end date.

 

Tracking back through subscription sources, (sorry!), Effie Young, aged 11, was recorded on the 1901 census of England and Wales living with her widowed Mother, Mary and three siblings at 19 Shakespear Street, South Manchester - a familiar address from the CWGC entry.  However neither they or Effies' father Richard, (name from marriage records) appear to be on the 1891 census, so her start in life and her end for now remains a mystery.

 

Regards,

Peter

Researcher on a (very tight) budget !

[clk]

Hi,

 

There is a 3rd quarter 1974 death registration record for an Effie Bunting which gives a DoB of 6th November 1888. Also available to view via FreeBMD here

 

Regards

Chris

[PRC]

Good spot - for some reason both Genes Reunited and Family Search, (which cites FindMyPast as its source).have transcribed it as 1885 although the original page from the GRO clearly shows 1888. I just wish the major Genealogy sites would crowd source corrections rather than treat them as a nuisance. The first one that does will be on to a goldmine :-)

 

Family Search page: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVCB-4QQF

 

There is no apparent Civil Probate for Effie. (Checked 1974 - 1979).

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Bruleo]

Many, MANY thanks for your detailed replies.

 

I had managed to track down some information, a lot of it conflicting,  but the information you have given here will prove very useful. Thanks again.

 

The website (which I am building myself) for Privates Bunting and Crockson is coming along nicely and I will post back here once it is live. This I plan to do prior to the Remembrance Services next month.  I will of course provide a citation and link for this forum / thread from the site. 

 

For anyone interested, I have also managed to track down a letter (possibly a copy) made by a friend of Pvt Bunting to his wife, Effie, while he was interned at Memel hospital (now Klaipeda) before he died.  In the letter, the friend supposedly writes to A. Bunting's pregnant wife that he is being looked after and should not worry.  However,  A. Bunting died shortly after, never to see his child.

 

The letter is held at a small local museum at https://www.mlimuziejus.lt/en/the-history-museum-of-lithuania-minor-2/  (having previously been donated by A. Bunting's great grandson).

I hope to receive a photo / transcription and permission to publish it on the new site. I am currently awaiting a response from the museum. However, knowing the local authorities inability to effectively communicate through email, I may have to visit the museum itself and transcribe the letter myself.

 

In my research, I have also heard of some VERY vague plans to expand the Vittener Cemetery in Klaipeda to include memorials to some other 'lost' British War dead whom have thus far gone unmentioned anywhere, but it is unclear as to whether these will be from WWI, WWII or both.  I do know there are quite a lot of War dead here from many other countries, so it's a bit odd that only two British are mentioned anywhere in the entire Country.

 

Again, my sincere thanks and respect for your time.

 

Bruce.

 

 

 

[Bruleo]

As promised, I just wanted to reply with an update.

 

The website is very near completion, with a few tweaks and formatting issues to take care of, and several more timeline events to add.

You can view the site here : https://www.britishwargraves.lt/

 

I will, in due course, endeavour to make it mobile-friendly. That will come later, as my main priority was to get the site ready in time for the Remembrance Day events in November, which we will actually be holding a week earlier than usual.

 

Thanks to all your pointers, I have managed to track down quite a lot of information, some of which is not available on even the bigger sites, particularly in relation to Private Bunting. However, the more I find, the more conflicting information that seems to exist.  For example, some records state that Bunting's wife was pregnant with his child when a friend of his wrote from Memel hospital (Lithuania), but since he had been in captivity for a period of 21 months, that seems 'fairly' unlikely!

 

Information of Private Crockson is far more sketchy! Apart from a few personal records, I can't find any information whatsoever on his time in the Somerset Light Infantry, apart from general information about them as part of the BEF in the early days of the war.

 

 Anyway, I have added below several photos that were taken just a couple of hours ago at the War Graves for both Crockson and Bunting that are located about 10 minutes from where I live.

 

I may need to rescue the that cacti someone has placed by the graves, as it usually starts snowing around the time of the Remembrance service and I fear they won't survive much longer!!

 

 

 

 

[ALDAWSON77]

I took these this afternoon. Well maintained little patch.