Drivers - what else did they do apart from drive?

[Guest JSummerill]

According to the Medal Index Card and the engraving on his medals my paternal grandfather Frederick G (George) Summerill was a DVR, which means Driver.

What is the equivalent rank for a Driver - is it Private?

The MIC said he was in the ASC (Army Service Corps) and the Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment. The number for the ASC was T4-248439 and for the Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment it was 92405. (I believe that you can't trace any further than the regiment from the number. Is this correct?)

The medals only have the number beginning T4 on them. He received a British War Medal and a Victory Medal, which I've just found out means he served abroad in a theatre of war but after 1916.

I'm presuming that if he was driving then he wasn't actually in the trenches. Is that a correct assumption? So where would be have been billeted and what would the life of a driver be like? Does this mean he didn't go into battle, as such?

The only oral information I have is that my Dad said his father mentioned the guns being pulled by horses and that he thinks his father was in the Somme.

I'd be very grateful for both general and specific information so I could build up an understanding of where he was during WW1 and what he did and how it would have been for drivers.

Thanks in advance.

Jo

[KONDOA]

Hi Jo

The primary job of a driver in the ASC was to carry loads of all manner from base depots to the front. Go To http://www.1914-1918.net/asc.htm for a full understanding of this.

However his prime task when not driving was the care and health of his horses (assuming a horsed company) and the general maintenance of harness and tack associated therewith. It may include wagon repairs as assistant to a wheelwright/carpenter, however, being the Army its sure to have included a good deal of manual labour loading and unloading, stacking, storing etc.

The ASC did not take part in attacks in the sense you mean, they were a support service and were in many respects the means by which the war could be maintained and eventually won. Being a driver was not a particularly pleasant task and very dangerous. The horses and carts had to follow routes or roads which were easy for the enemy to learn of and lay down artillery fire (shrapnel and HE) to prevent the supplies getting to the front lines.

His billets would be some distance behind the lines depending upon his specific task, it could have been way back on the coast but unlikely with horse transport. Typically the billets would be within easy reach of a supply dump and thus an enemy artillery target, again not very pleasant.

Hope this helps

Roop

[marc leroux]

Jo, at least in the CEF the rate of pay for a Driver was equivalent to a Private.

marc

[Terry Denham]

He received a British War Medal and a Victory Medal, which I've just found out means he served abroad in a theatre of war but after 1916. 

Jo

Not 'after 1916' but from 1916 onwards. He could have gone abroad first any time from 01.01.16.

[tybaltstone]

My G-grandfather, Peter McDougall Cameron, was a 'Motor Driver' in the ASCMT. On his service papers the only clue (that I understand) given is that his conduct sheet mentions a pay-dock for '[illegible]..driving in charge of.. [illegibel].. 54831 leaving the car unattended with the engine running.'

Oral history says he drove high-ranking officers to the front to visit soldiers' graves, chosen for the job because he was well-spoken! He enlisted 12.12.1915 age 36, and was abroad July 1918 to August 1919... I have a letter and a couple of postcards from Germany and Belgium (which I need to look at again).

[Guest JSummerill]

Thanks for the information everybody.

It sounds like being a driver wasn't as soft an option as it initially sounded to me. He was still in danger.

I'm not sure why my grandfather was put in the ASC as a driver. Could he have asked for it or would he have been placed there for some specific skill he possessed, or were people just sent where the numbers needed to be made up?

I don't know if this is of any relevance but Frederick came from Birmingham, England. I suspect that he was involved in a metal trade, pin making, because his family were. My Dad says that when he was growing up that grandad was an electro-plater. (BTW my paternal grandfather died in 1948, aged 53, long before I was born.)

I know Frederick was born on 18 August 1895, so he would have turned 19 shortly after the war began. I presume that not receiving a medal for pre-1916 service means that he didn't volunteer, but was conscripted later. Would this be a correct assumption? Or would pin making have been some sort of reserved occupation?

So a driver could drive either a motorised vehicle or a horse and cart. I didn't realise that.

What was the rate of pay for a Private/Driver anyway?

Does the T4 mean that he was in the New Army, that was not part of the pre-1914 Regular and Territorial Army? Were the T4 part of the fifth Division with a particular ASC company acting as a divisional train? (I'm still trying to come to terms with the terminology and the structure of the armies.)

Jo

[Borden Battery]

With the wish to have a better idea what some drivers may have done, here is an excerpt from the War Diary of the 1st Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade during the "Last Hundreds Days" - a period of rapid movement and a time when some drivers may have had several extra duties and experiences.

======================================

Sat, Sep 7, 1918 TILLOY-LES-HERMANVILLE (LENS II), FRANCE

1st Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade - II28a Sheet 51C

All battery stores and equipment checked.

--- signed , Lt.-Col. W.K. Walker, Commanding 1st Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade

Headquarters,

1st Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade

MMG 17 Sept. 7th, 1918

To/

The Officer Commanding,

Canadian Motor Machine Gun

M. T. Company

I wish to send you my appreciation and thanks for the splendid work of the M. T. Personnel attached to my Brigade. Please let all the Drivers know that as long as they stick to their vehicles in action, the machine gunners will stick to them. Private Montri's splendid example of grit and courage is an example for all to copy. He drove his car anywhere the machine gunners directed knowing full well that the gunners would stand by him till the last. Driver Montri and the machine gunners fought side by side and they died side by side.

I always bear in mind too the untiring efforts of the Workshop Personnel whose duty it is to keep the machines on the road.

I now look forward to more fighting of a more open nature when there will be constant calls on the Motor Machine Guns so our motto must be "PREPARE".

I especially wish to mention the following drivers who conspicuously distinguished themselves:

No. 513818 Dvr. Montri, E. L. Killed in Action.

No. 514480 Dvr. Sunbury, T. H. Killed in Action

No. 1 Section, C.M.M.G.M.T. Coy.

No. 45592 Pte. E. H. Code, M.M.

No. 2867 Cpl. J. A. Louw, M.M.

No. 514273 Dvr. Edward, R. W.

No. 512467 Dvr. Hughes, A.

No. 826143 Dvr. Little, J.

No. 2003632 Dvr. McBroom, G.M.

No. 1262321 Dvr. Whyte, W.H.

No. 2 Section, C.M.M.G.M.T. Coy.

No. 2591289 Dvr. Williams, W.F.

No. 513897 Dvr. Moore, F.C.W.

Lieut-Colonel,

Commanding 1st Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

THE MILITARY MEDAL.

150820 Driver Owen Abner BROWN. ( No. 1 Section C.M.M.G.M.T.Coy.

C.A.S.C attd. 1st C.M.M.G.Bde.)

For most conspicuous bravery and devotion to duty in action on November 4th 1918 near ONNAING.

Driver Brown was the driver of a Motor Machine Gun Glory and hearing than our infantry had some casualties and were unable to back with them he drove his vehicle to the place and are back with the wounded, the whole time being under heavy shell fire.

The following day near QUAROUBLE Driver Brown drove his lorry with great skill and under shellfire, rifle and Machine Gun fire he carried out his duties with remarkable coolness and courage. Eventually his lorry was knocked out and his second driver became a casualty so Driver Brown went on foot to his Battery Commander and asked to be used as a Runner, he continued to do remarkable brave work until the Batteries were withdrawn.

[KONDOA]

I'm not sure why my grandfather was put in the ASC as a driver

Well, obviously his folks were not preposessed to this work but what was your mans trade?? You may find he had horse handling skills which propelled him into this position, it is unlikely he wouldnt have these skills to be a driver given that everything in the nation at that time moved by horsepower.If not he wouldnt be driving and a country lad would have the reins.

Roop

[Grovetown]

Hi there

T4 was the service number prefix for Horse Transport in, as you surmise, the 4th New Army.

Rgds,

Grovetown.

[tybaltstone]

In relation to what skills a driver may have already posessed, Peter Cameron (see above) had been a motor driver in Dundee, working as a carter and van driver.

[frev]

Jo

After reading the diary & letters of one of the Aussie soldiers I'm researching I'd say that the role of a driver was far from being a 'soft option.'

The conclusion I came to was that the role of a motor transport driver was crucial to the army's existence. They travelled endless miles, through some of the most appalling conditions, carrying anything and everything, including meat, laundry (both clean & 'chatty'), high explosives, bread, blankets, barbed wire, general rations, road metal, soldiers, timber, garbage, beer, ammunition, dismantled camps, coal ..... - the variety is endless. In between loads it was necessary to be constantly cleaning out their lorries, as well as regularily overhauling & repairing them just to keep them in running condition. They often had to locate their destinations in the dark, contending with boggy roads, shell holes, rain, falling shells, dust, snow, breakdowns, etc etc. Their only consolation may have been that they didn't have to fight - yet in some ways they were bigger, easier TARGETS than the man in the trench!

An excerpt from this motor driver's letter to his wife:

"The road was simply packed with lorries and horse transport, and as we started to go up the hill he [the enemy] started to shell the crest. Dick and I were the last lorry of our lot, just as we got to the crest, a shell smashed a horse wagon and blocked the traffic, killing many horses and causing much confusion. It was a narrow road and we were clean blocked and the Germans opened a battery of 5.9 on to us. About the third shell landed just on our right about ten yards away and a piece got Dick. He was driving and I was sitting beside him, and Myrtle how I am alive is a marvel and mystery to everyone who has seen the bus [lorry]. A big piece must have passed under my very chin and past my neck and into the wood by my head. And two great pieces came clean through the engine smashing the two back cylinders through the steel, dash past my ankles and out the side.

Well, poor Dick said, "Oh Al, I'm knocked here" placing his hand on the lower part of his stomach. The engine was stopped, so I switched it off and grabbed Dick and got him out on the ground and had a look at his wound. But a shell landed very close, so I got Dick up and we struggled away, he holding the wound, and me getting him along, but we had to throw ourselves down about every 10 or 15 yards. They were landing all around us, ................."

Dick unfortunately died the next day, but Alan came home from the war. He had joined the army as a driver because he was a motor mechanic.

Cheers, Frev

[manxman]

just cos he wasn't overseas before 1916 doesn't signify that he was or wasn't a volunteer, it merely means that he wasn't overseas in a war zone prior to 1916..