Could any one id this ww1 German tunic as to regt pls

[microscope1967]

enclose pics this frame is made from a tunic sleeve/back thanks

[trajan]

I am not a uniform expert by any means, but in the absence of any other identifying feature I would think it would be just about impossible to tell the back of one regimental dunkelblau tunic from another, except in very broad terms, e.g., (IIRC) red piping = infantry; the cuffs lack litzen, so not a Garde unit... Where was the photograph taken - that might limit the State option!

Trajan

[Martin Feledziak]

Interesting display and nice to actually see the shade of blue.

So it would tend to indicate that he was the recipient of a Iron Cross first class and a wound badge.

Can you make out the name of the photographer , sometimes the barracks used the local photographer to produce their souvenirs.

a long shot but you never know.

[microscope1967]

thats good thinking the pic says J.ASSMANN THORM OR THORN BRUCKENST

So red piping is infantry

matbe i should try and remove the photo its held in by panel pins maybe something on the back

[microscope1967]

looked up Thorn it was in West Prussia now Poland

[Martin Feledziak]

Could be IR61

http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/IR_61

Just like my Great Uncle.

I have a post card with his group in training in Thorn in 1909.

During the war he reported to RIR61 at Gdansk.

I struggled with this issue when I was researching Jacob.

I believe that IR61 had yellow shoulder tabs with red numerals.

Your man looks like the shoulder tabs are red.

http://www.kaisersbu...w/infantry1.htm

http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Assmann_(Thorn)/Fotostudio

It looks like the German 35th Division were linked to Thorn

so there are many possibles

Pre-World War I organization

The organization of the 35th Division in 1914, shortly before the outbreak of World War I, was as follows:[6]

• 70. Infanterie-Brigade
  • Infanterie-Regiment von Borcke (4. Pommersches) Nr. 21
  • Infanterie-Regiment von der Marwitz (8. Pommersches) Nr. 61
• 87. Infanterie-Brigade
  • Kulmer Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 141
  • 9. Westpreußisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 176
• 35. Kavallerie-Brigade
  • Husaren-Regiment Fürst Blücher von Wahlstatt (Pommersches) Nr. 5
  • Jäger-Regiment zu Pferde Nr. 4
• 35. Feldartillerie-Brigade
  • Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 71 Großkomtur
  • Thorner Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 81
• Landwehr-Inspektion Graudenz

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/35th_Division_(German_Empire)

[microscope1967]

That is very very interesting thank you I shall study it and your links with care

thanks again

[CGM]

Could be IR61

http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/IR_61

Just like my Great Uncle.

I have a post card with his group in training in Thorn in 1909.

During the war he reported to RIR61 at Gdansk.

I struggled with this issue when I was researching Jacob.

I believe that IR61 had yellow shoulder tabs with red numerals.

Your man looks like the shoulder tabs are red.

http://www.kaisersbu...w/infantry1.htm

Just a thought, but if you are looking at dark shoulder tabs and thinking they must have been red not yellow - have you taken into account the film which may have been used?

Orthochromatic film was almost universally used until around 1920 (then panchromatic started to take over).

This film rendered certain light colours dark and other dark colours light.

As a rough guide:

Red becomes darker, maybe almost black, so black and red look the same.

Yellow becomes almost black

Green is middle of the range

Blue and purple become very pale.

As I said, this is just a suggestion for consideration.

CGM

[trajan]

Just a thought, but if you are looking at dark shoulder tabs and thinking they must have been red not yellow - have you taken into account the film which may have been used? ...

A very good point which I was thinking off earlier but failed to mention... Prussian centenary medal ribbons , for example, almost always show up black-ish but are in fact a golden yellow.

I think the key will be / is where the photograph was taken plus a gradual elimination of possibilities from the potential combinations. He does have, for one, a 'darker' coloured cuff band next to his Brandenburg cuff fastening, and the colour of that - IIRC - could help identify Armee Korps also.

Basically, from what has been said above, then analysis on these lines using Moritz at: http://verlustlisten.blogspot.com.tr/2013/09/die-uniformen-der-deutschen-armee.html and/or the Pickelhaube site should narrow it down much further - but the tunic skirt does not specifically help really!

Should have said earlier - a nice group though, and a silver Verwundetenabzeichen as well - but chaps did move around from regiment to regiment and so photograph and awards will not necessarily relate.

Trajan

[Martin Feledziak]

Trajan -

I have not seen Moritz before, very useful and of course adds more confusion to an already confusing study.

CGM -

Interesting I will keep this information to mind.

The below is a picture of Jacob, he was born in 1886 so would have been 20 in 1906

I am guessing that this would be his early service.

He was in Thorn (Torun) in 1909 also.

Any idea what colours we could be considering. ?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=201713&page=22#entry2315514

In 1914 he was called up as a reservist and badly wounded with RIR61 that year.

[shippingsteel]

I don't think anyone has yet mentioned one of the more important differentiators between regiments, and that is the piping colour of the Brandenburg cuffs shown.

In the photo the cuffs look to be piped in a lighter colour so perhaps it is white. The shoulder board colour together with the cuff type and piping colour are the key.

EDIT. It seems to me that for it to be a local Thorn regiment we do need to have a Yellow shoulderboard with Red numerals. This doesn't seem to match the photo.

Cheers, S>S

[Martin Feledziak]

Here is a nice example of a study by J.ASSMANN

​

http://static.myvimu.com/photo/05/5540523.jpg

and another

http://wiki-commons.genealogy.net/images/6/69/Thorn-Assmann01.jpg

it may be a coincidence or just the way my eyes interpret shades of grey but in both of the above examples they appear, to me, how yellow would be in black and white.

and from Trajan's handy link

so if I get this right looking at the info at the bottom of the graphic

( IR 141 & IR 176 ) which were 87 Brigade and

( IR 21 & IR 61 ) which were 70 Brigade

would all wear the yellow shoulder tabs

I think IR128 are Danziger Infanterie Regt 128 XVII Armee Korps

but who are 14, 18 and 44 ?

Good point Shipping steel - the graphic also appears to indicate a white piping at the sleve end, or cuff

[bob lembke]

The photographer was probably J. Assmann, of Brucken Strasse, or "Bridge Street", Thorn. It is possible that the photographer's studio was right by the regimental Kaserne, so you could see if there was a Kaserne on or near Brucken Strasse, probably near a river. The Berlin address book of the period was about 3500 pages, and is on line; perhaps the address book of Thorn exists, and might give information about J. Assmann, and hence the regiment.

Are the shoulder straps black? Pioniere? I can't see the photo well on my laptop.

The silver wound badge was for three to five wounds, but there were standards, my father was wounded four times in combat, but only two made the grade, and he got the black wound badge for one to three official wounds. I am thinking of a famous storm battalion officer, Junger??; in a memoire he mentioned that he officially had seven wounds, but that he counted 14 holes in his hide. So a silver wound badge is quite an accomplishment.

[Martin Feledziak]

Greetings Bob,

I did try to look at the various potential military buildings but there are so many of them that I gave up. Thorn looks like a massively impressive city with considerable strategic importance hence the substantial fortifications.

Many of which remain.

I do not understand Polish or German and I imagine that the name of the Bridge Street would have been changed after either of the conflicts. So we need someone skilled to work that one out.

I did find this interesting graphic from 1900 which gives a little Armee Korps / regimental detail. sadly it is not zoomable and an investment would need to be made to view the full information, but here is a view.

You can just about make out the two Thorn brigades of the 35th Division.

copied from here.

http://www.historischer-bilderdienst.de/uniformen/deutschland/deutsches-kaiserreich-1870-1914/index.php

[Martin Feledziak]

This is the barracks Raclawickie which could be a strong contender ( looks like it is now a hotel )

http://en.tracesofwar.com/article/77100/Festung-Thorn-Barracks-Raclawickie.htm

[trajan]

I don't think anyone has yet mentioned one of the more important differentiators between regiments, and that is the piping colour of the Brandenburg cuffs shown.

Quite right SS. I was wondering more in my post at no. 10 on the band next to it as being an AK indicator, but yes, piping should narrow things down

Here is a nice example of a study by J.ASSMANN ...

... I did find this interesting graphic from 1900 which gives a little Armee Korps / regimental detail. sadly it is not zoomable and an investment would need to be made to view the full information, but here is a view.

You can just about make out the two Thorn brigades of the 35th Division.

Seems like all is on the right track - sorry t have been absent from this for a while, something called work intervened seriously with hobby time...!

[Martin Feledziak]

Greetings Julian-

Microscope has been offline since post 7 but this topic is still interesting to me.

I have added the below graphic from 1897 map which includes a little detail in the Thorn area - circled. I can see IR21, IR61 and 2nd Battalion IR176, 4 Ulans ( Horses ), some Feldartllerie and No 2 Pioniers.

That is if I am reading it correctly.

http://www.grosser-generalstab.de/regiment/garnkarte1897.html

[ww1diggers]

Hi everyone

I know this is an old post, but I hope someone gets a notification.  Can someone assist with identifying this tunic (arm of service etc)  WW1 German not my strong point so not sure of the complex piping combinations etc .  I believe it to be an officer's tailored made M10 simplified tunic.  The label inside is very nice and clearly dates it to 1915 and made in Bremen.  I am assuming it is a Hanoverian tunic.  Did they have Prussian buttons?  Grateful any info.  Regards  Digger

[AOK4]

It's a tunic for Train units (logistics), light blue piping of the tunic and the blue piping of the shoulder boards.

[GreyC]

Hi,

do I read the name as Dr.  Schaeffer correctly?

In 1914 there was one Dr. Gustav Schaeffer in Bremen. He was a medical doctor. Doesn´t have to be him, of course.

GreyC

Edited 14 August , 2018 by GreyC

[The Prussian]

Hello!

It´s hard to say, but please have a closer look. Was there anything upon the collars??? Could it be the medic patch? It looks like if there was something removed...

The shoulder board doesn´t have medic insignias (staff of Aesculapius).

 

[AOK4]

6 minutes ago, The Prussian said:

Hello!

It´s hard to say, but please have a closer look. Was there anything upon the collars??? Could it be the medic patch? It looks like if there was something removed...

The shoulder board doesn´t have medic insignias (staff of Aesculapius).

 

 

Medical doctors had special shoulder boards, the ones on the tunic are definitely Train. The blue piping is also Train.

[The Prussian]

Yes. I wrote, this one has no medic insignias.

[ww1diggers]

Hi All

Sorry for my delay in responding.  Thank you for your information.  The tunic was offered to me and I just wanted to identify it.  I only have these pictures, but I also thought the collars have had some type of patch removed.  THe tag does look like it says Dr Shaeffer, so I think it may be "the" Dr Shaeffer from Bremen.  That means the boards are added, but I always thought they looked a bit too new (unused) for the tunic.  Therefore, I think it must be a medical officers tunic as suggested.  It is a very nice tunic, named and dated, but I was hoping it may have been  an infantry, artillery or combat service.

Regards

Digger