Charles Hodgkins, N. Staffs in Gallipoli

[tybaltstone]

Hello,

Although I have visited this site and forum over a couple of years now, I have put off posting because I kept thinking 'I've got too many questions!'. But now I thought I'd dive in. I'm amazed at the knowledge and generosity of knowledge here, and have very much enjoyed following other people's queries.

My great-grandfather was Charles Hodgkins and he joined the North Staffordshire Regiment at Lichfield on 1st Sept 1914 (though the oath was taken the previous day at Uttoxeter, where he lived). My main query about him concerns the dates on his service record in relation to the dates of the N. Staffs at Gallipoli...

By the way, he seems to have two regimental numbers - 1511 and 4/8848. Sometimes the numbers have a 4/ in front, though the 8848 also has what looks like an F.

Summary of Dates on Record:

Joined at Lichfield 1-9-14

Posted to 4th N. Staffs 4-9-14

Posted to 7th Btn 27-8-15

Posted to Depot 4-11-15

Discharged 23-6-16

Home from 31-8-14 to 26-8-15 (361 days)

Mediterranean Expeditionary Force from 27-8-15 to 3-11-15 (69 days)

Home from 4-11-15 to 23-6-16 (232 days)

Total: 1 year 297 days

Station: Guernsey Arrival: 5-9-14 Disembarkation: 27-8-15

Lichfield Military Hospital: 11-4-16 to 15-4-16 (Pleurisy)

As you'll see from the dates above, it states he went to the Dardanelles in August 1915, but later in his medical case notes it says "He was in training and in Military Hosp Guernsey with bronchitis for a week, attending after. Went to Dardanelles in July: kept well till Sept and then had pneumonia (Baviere Hospital, Malta for convalescence)".

I've been trying to reconcile his service dates with those I can find of the N. Staffs in Gallipoli. I have Ray Westlakes excellent and fascinating book 'British Regiments at Gallipoli' and this states the 7th Battalion sailed from Avonmouth on 19th June, arrived Mudros after a week, and then onto Gallipoli, landing at Cape Helles on 11 July 1915.

I suppose my ignorance may come from the numbers 4th and 7th. The records state he was in Corps: 4th North Staffordshire regiment, Battalion: 7th Bn. I've always wondered why he was in Guernsey (and what he was doing), for nearly a year, and why the 7th arrived in Gallipoli on 11th July, but Chas Hodgkins didn't until 27 Aug 1915 (was that his embarkation date, or arrival date?)

From information on this site I see it says:

7th (Service) Battalion:

Formed at Lichfield, 29 August 1914, as part of K1. August 1914 : attached to 39th Brigade, 13th (Western) Division.

Can anyone help reconcile these dates? Thank you very much, and apologies for the long-winded post.

- Garen.

[Greenwoodman]

Hi Garen

I'll see if I can shed some light on this for you.

I don't have a great knowledge of regimental numbers but would suggest that 4/8848 is his number in 4th Battalion. 4th Battalion Prince of Wales North Staffordshires was an Extra Reserve battalion. It started the war at Lichfield and moved to Guernsey in August 1914. Charles is likely to have been trained with this battalion. His bronchitis is likely to have held up his training.

He was then drafted for Gallipoli in July 1915, but is likely to have been held back as a reinforcement, maybe in Egypt, maybe in Lemnos. He was sent to the 7th battalion on 27 Aug 1915.

7th Battalion meanwhile had already had a chequered career on Gallipoli. Landed first in the Helles sector 11th July, re-embarked for Lemnos 28th July. Then landed in the Anzac sector 3rd August, where they had some severe fighting and casualties. Relieved from forward area on 30th Aug and moved back to Lala Baba in the Suvla sector.

Charles will either have joined the battalion as a reinforcement (replacement for a casualty) in the Anzac sector, or perhaps joined the advance party (if there was one) waiting for the battalion to join them in the Suvla sector. Either way, his landing date on the peninsula should be 27/08/15, and his story follows that of 7th Battalion until September when he caught pneumonia. Shipped out from Gallipoli, and Malta was one place they were sent to (Vera Brittain was a VAD there). They'll have sent him home in November (not sure whether 3rd will be disembarkation date in UK, or departure date from Malta). Posted to Depot covers a mutitude of sins, but probably means he was not yet recovered fully from pneumonia. Pleurisy in April, and then probably the decision for medical discharge in June 1916.

[tybaltstone]

Thank you very much for that Richard. I suppose I just wasn't certain how easily an individual was moved between units. I'd also always thought of the '4th N. Staffs' being part of the '7th Battalion', but while typing out my question, it did start to dawn on me that is was the 4th Battalion, and the 7th Battalion, hence the different numbers. His service record never explicitly said 4th *Battalion*, and my WWI knowledge is only slowly increasing.

So thank you again for the benefit of your experience on this, you've been a great help, and helped to solidify the story of Charles Hodgkins - which started out with a family story saying Charles had been gassed at the Dardanelles (there was no gas used there, and thus was my welcome to the wonderful world of 'family stiories'!).

Best -

Garen.

[tybaltstone]

I have just obtained the birth certificate for Charles' eldest daughter, Millie (who died just under a year ago) - she was born in April 1918, and under 'occupation of father' it says 'corn merchant's carter, ex-Private 4th North Staffordshire Regiment No. 8848'.

I just wanted to understand the difference between a regiment and a battalion. His service record refers to the 4th Regiment, but the 7th Battalion, and I always presumed the 4th R. was part of the 7th B.

But as Greenwoodman has said , the 4th *Battalion* went to Guernsey - where Charles was indeed stationed before he ended up in Gallipoli. Is this reference to 'regiment' on Millie's birth certificate and Charles' service record a mistake, and it should read Battalion? If he ended his service in the 7th Bttn. I would have thought that would be listed under his occupation, rather than the 4th (and I guess it is this which has led me to still feel confused over it).

Sorry for getting into the cracks of it, I just want to make sure it's all clear in my head, and that Charles did get transferred from 4th to 7th. I'm sure I'm complicating a simple matter!

My thanks -

Garen.

[Greenwoodman]

The Regiment could be seen as the geographical division of the army, expecially the county regiments. Staffordshire is a heavily popoulated county and has two. The full name for this regiment is The Prince of Wales's (North Staffordshire Regiment).

An infantry battalion at the time of the Great War was an infantry unit of around a 1,000 men and was a Lieut.-Colonel's command, although command devolved a long way down when a battalion took severe casualties.

The term "4th North Staffordshire Regiment" means the 4th Battalion of The Prince of Wales's (North Staffordshire Regiment). (Prior to being named, regiments were referred to by number, but the 4th Regiment was the King's Royal Lancaster Regiment.)

So both 4th and 7th refer to battalions. As to why the 4th is on Millie's certificate, it may come down to the fact that Charles spent 10 months with the 4th, but only one month with the 7th, and that under outlandish conditions. He may just have viewed it that the 4th represented normality and thus his service with the Regiment.

[tybaltstone]

Richard - thank you very much for that clear description, you've been an enormous help. I feel safer with the regiments before 1881, and all the complications (to me) of WWI are really something to get to grips with. I hugely appreciate your knowledge on this.

Best -

Garen.